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  #731  
Old 03-16-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Paulo- Your posts here and on the the other thread reflect a difference in the US v. European markets. Here in the rat race of the US there is a niche of sailors who although they have sailed their whole lives can only now in their 60s and 70s go cruising. They want to crusie the San Quins,east coast of US, the Carribean, the South Pacific, the Hebrides, the west coast of europe and north coast of the Med. THEY DON'T WANT TO GO VOYAGING. THEY WANT TO GO CRIUSING. They will make use of those advances that improve the quality of their lives. Comforts and aesethics are just as important to this group as performance. To paraphase Crealock-the "voyage" should equal the joy of the arrival. Have lots of screen on my boat-stll rather read a book.
The US water tourists don't have the same outlook as the 30 to 40 somethings taking off from europe.
There is a difference between the European and the N. American market. But why? Remember the majority of Europeans cruising are cruising like the Americans are cruising. The Europeans are sailing the Med, north to Sweden, Norway, Great Briton, some go south to the canaries and maybe cross over and continue on into the pacific. Yes we hear of the Europeans going to crazy places in the Artic circle because Europeans love to hear about great adventures and the press reports it. Crealock was right, "voyage should equal the joy of arrival. I think that is true for all most all that go sailing to other places and countries. Europeans love the destination as much as we do.

On the 30 to 40 something outlook. All I can say is that the 30 to 40 age group in Europe has so many more options in sailboats to buy. The affordability of a new boat in Europe is so much better than here in N. America. The 30 to 40 year old in Europe has the same type of income as N. Americans, all the same disavantages like unemployment, the ending recession and far higher taxes. But we see more of them for one major reason a better boat market to get going in. As for the 50,60, even 70 year old market again it is about the same as here. The Majority of that age group in Europe has more income to spend just like here and so they can afford to buy a more expensive and most times a bigger boat. In Europe the options are great, some still buy used boats mostly traditional design and other because of the huge market will go new. Here in America we don't have that new or used market any more.

Yes Americans have a harder time getting use to the European boat. The interior is simple on most of the European boats, the galleys are different and not as seaworthy. On that subject all I can say is if N. America ever gets a new boat market going where boats are being made in the USA they will have simpler interiors than the old days and many will have the European Galley. There is not the rare wood around and the time to do old style joinery without bring the cost up to unreasonable prices. My new boat does not have the same type of interior work as our Mason did. Still nice but I would not have been able to afford the boat if it did have the interior work the Mason had. I like most could live with that as long as it is livable so that I can get the best boat design possible for my needs.

I think it was Oregonian who thought some of us had motives to push European designs. I don't have any motives, I don't sell boats and it's not because I have a new European design on the way. I post on just few threads I find interesting and if I can help someone from N. America who would like to buy a new sailboat instead of an old one then I will point them toward Europe. Why? Because the N. American market is not doing well and there is not a whole lot of options here. I would hope those who are interested in a new boat to sail long distance will open up to new ideas. Why? Because if you do you will have a whole lot more options in getting a very good seaworthy boat available to you. I guess those are my motives.

I will say we are very conservative country, Did I read somewhere that 40% of Americans believe that evolution never took place and in Europe only 4% believe that evolution did not take place. Maybe its the same in boat evolution, there are just going to be more sailors here in N. America no matter what who will not grasp the concept that many new ideas were the evolution of old ideas slowly brought together to give a new and improved product. Certainly the fin keel of the 1970's and 80's is not the same as the fin keel of today.

I would like to say that I have not noticed one attack on some ones older style boat here on this thread. I think posters have pointed out difference in performance but I do not see anyone ripping apart someones boat. This is not a " Is a Hunter a good boat to sail to Greenland in" thread. I know Outbound was interested in a new Boreal like mine but he and the admiral wanted something different in the end. There were things they did not like about the Boreal, the Galley was one. I never took that as an attack on my boat it was his opinion and hey I agree with him I don't like it compared to the Mason 44 galley but we decided we could adapt to the problems. The boat on the whole gave us exactly what we were looking for. By the way if anyone wants to crap on my boat here you are welcome, I want to hear about it, you may know something I don't and I want to know about it so I can solve the problem.

Like " interesting sailboats" this is a very good thread.

Cheers
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Last edited by hannah2; 03-16-2013 at 01:23 PM.
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  #732  
Old 03-16-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

I agree with you on that, but not everyone sees it that way. Just about every thread eventually breaks down into "my way is the right way and any other way is wrong" often time using generalizations to prove this..I recognize that boating allows for even more diversity than the rest of the world and/or allows you to express this.
A friend of mine who's interests are definitely fin keel, masthead jib, and every modern "improvement" my boat doesn't have continuously finds himself admitting the performance qualities of my boat both power and sail.
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Wuffie- I agree with the substance of Hannah's post. There were many features of the Boreal that I found logical and made great sense to me. I think that it is a great boat with outstanding features. I can't crap on it or the boats Paulo talks about. Hannah has not said "this is right and that is wrong". When you contemplate spending much of the rest of you life in a boat your emphatise is altered. Both Hannah and Paulo have said I will have a great boat with excellent perfomance. Both have said at present there are more options with better bang for you buck on the other side of the pond and I think they are right. Hannah has been open and honest. Hannah decided some of the interior features are less important to the quality of their lives than exterior and structural design features.I decided differently. I decided I wanted the best performing boat that included interior features and structural features ( many mentioned in prior posts) that addressed weaknesses in prior boats I've owned or been involved with. I knew I was possibly giving up a percent or two in SOG but gaining multiple things that put my mind at peace and improve the quality of my experience..Believe that would cause us to be more likely to sail the Outbound hard and hopefully far. In the end Hannah's boat added too many variables and new ways of thinking to allow sufficient comfort for my wife and I to make the jump. I pray we both have made the right decision for all of us.I believe I have 95% of the features Paulo exposes and 100% of the features Hannah loved about her Mason. There are boats that have 100% of the features of both but I have yet to find one I can afford and still have something left for the cruiising kitty. I find the interiors of new boats stark and think they will be harder to live in. Others may find them beautiful. I believe it's arrogant to be judgmental about someone else's tastes. But this aspect is important to me as I envision spending countless days on the boat at our various destinations. Silly daily things like having a work shop, doing the laundry,handling the trash,being able to cook a fancy dinner. I always thought the interiors of Hinckleys were beautiful. As far as I know they just make motorboats ( of moden design) now. None of this abborgates the good features of your boat nor the good features of modern bulbed fin keel boats. Wuffie - I hope to cruise with you someday. Perhaps it will open your eyes. I hope to cruise with Hannah perhaps it will open my eyes.Maybe if P cruises with me I'll get "wow this aint so bad and she's fast" Hell, I thought about having Covey Island build me a strip planked schooner (with a moden rig though).There are many ways to seek the horizon. All they are saying is there are more options right now over there then here. They did not meet my needs but may met the needs of others. I expect Phil will be building more boats as I believe there are those with similar views as my own. Know Bob Perry reworked the deck molds to allow a "voyager" version of the 46 and the same design elements have been incorporated in ac 52 version as well. These are new boats. Carl was on to something with the 46- modern design with the liveability of the old. Best of both worlds.
P.S.- wuffie my deal is done. have no financial interest at any level in what any reader of my posts on this subject decide.
Anyone needing proof of evolution can come sit in my waiting room. infectious diseases evolve quicker than our ability to compound antibiotics, tumors mutate and evolve to escape therapy.. G-d moves in mysterious ways. I pray every day but you can't fix dumb
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  #734  
Old 03-17-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

I have only two things to say and then I'm going to move on (maybe )

1) Evolution has been referenced many times in this thread. Many do not seem to understand the theory of evolution correctly. Evolution does not mean that we are marching to a higher life form (or in this case a higher boat form) Evolution just means things change....yes, not always for the better.

2) Advertising is meant to inform us. This is also misunderstood by some. Advertising is meant to persuade us, not inform us. Yes, sometimes we are told what we should like.

I'm going sailing.
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Last edited by GBurton; 03-17-2013 at 01:41 PM.
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  #735  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

evolution is driven by the biologic quotient. It is dispassionate with no right or wrong. those life forms that produce more offspring capable of reproduction have more of their genetic material in the gene pool. GBurton is exactly right. but I hope our kids don't end up with a bunch of crappy boats just because they sell well. (GRIN)
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  #736  
Old 03-20-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Are we still discussing fin vs full?

I can add some more input. Having recently gone through a storm on a fin keeler, I can say one of the problems I had was difficulty staying on chosen point of sail due to yawing induced by crossing waves. The boat would pivit on the fin, and the rudder was inadequate to counteract this force.

A longer keel would have been less tiring to steer in this condition, and would have made better way....but I still made it. Other than the yawing the boat didn't do anything else unexpected.

So even though even though fins have their advantages, there are times a full keel has the advantage.
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  #737  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Hi CapnBill,

Was the fin keel that you sailed a new design or the older style that most of us are use to? Remember the new designs are totally different in rudder, hull, and fin makeup. But I have seen that problem in the fin keels of the 70's 80's 90's and early 00's. Those boats of that era were hard to sail in confused seas and I would have taken some form of a full keel any day over fin. But times have changed and boat design is moving on and I think to a better place.
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Hi Hannah- Agree with you but don't fully understand why that is. Your new boat should track like it is on rails once the lee daggerboard is dropped but even boats like mine seem to do just fine n those circumstances. Is it because a high aspect deep rudder develops enough lift? Or because there is enough lateral plane to a single deep balanced fin rudder or two rudders aft? Wuld think the flatter runs to the newer hulls aft would increase "squirelly-ness" but this doesn't seem to be the case. Wonder why.
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by hannah2 View Post
Hi CapnBill,

Was the fin keel that you sailed a new design or the older style that most of us are use to? Remember the new designs are totally different in rudder, hull, and fin makeup. But I have seen that problem in the fin keels of the 70's 80's 90's and early 00's. Those boats of that era were hard to sail in confused seas and I would have taken some form of a full keel any day over fin. But times have changed and boat design is moving on and I think to a better place.
If you are going to through all full keels into one category and point out the disadvantages that apply to some. You should be prepared to consider all fin keels. This thread is "fin vs full" not "the worst of the full vs the newest/best of the fin"
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
If you are going to through all full keels into one category and point out the disadvantages that apply to some. You should be prepared to consider all fin keels. This thread is "fin vs full" not "the worst of the full vs the newest/best of the fin"
And why not? I personally would not sail the old style fin keel over any full keeled boat. But I would consider sailing the newer design fin keels to the full keels of yesterday. That being said I like almost all the older full keels and have sailed them to places you can only imagine in your dreams. and would have done it again if that is the choice we made. Again hopefully for the last time, I love full keel boats for cruising long distance but want folks to know that if they are buying a new long distance boat that those new boats have fin keels on the most part and they do a really good job at getting their owners to their destinations in a safe comfortable manner and with better speed than most full keel boats or old fin keeled designs.
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