Full or fin keel? - Page 75 - SailNet Community
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post #741 of 847 Old 03-20-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Hi Hannah- Agree with you but don't fully understand why that is. Your new boat should track like it is on rails once the lee daggerboard is dropped but even boats like mine seem to do just fine n those circumstances. Is it because a high aspect deep rudder develops enough lift? Or because there is enough lateral plane to a single deep balanced fin rudder or two rudders aft? Wuld think the flatter runs to the newer hulls aft would increase "squirelly-ness" but this doesn't seem to be the case. Wonder why.
Hi Outbound, I tried to explain my thoughts on the subject but can not do it as well as Paulo or Jeff so one just needs to go to their posts to explain better than I can. For me I know what I feel when at the helm of a boat most of them cruising boats. The new designs seem to me to drive forward so much better than the old designed fin keel or that matter the old full keel. When I look at the hull design of old fin keels they look closer to the old full keel design than they do the newer designs and I'm sure that has something to do with it. Sorry I can't give you technical details as I'm just a sailor and not a designer.

By the way my wife is very impressed with the Outbound and last night asked me why we didn't look further into them before purchasing our new boat. I had to remind her we wanted the centerboard in aluminum. I'll let you know after we sail her for awhile if we made a mistake but she will let me know before I let you know as she is the supreme boss on our boat.

Cheers
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post #742 of 847 Old 03-20-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

You guys will see places I never will with my draft. I just want to catch up and try to get to some of the places you've been. Just weirded me out the boat tracks better than my old tayana double ender even when surfing. As regards wives had the same experience -she picked the boat off a short menu. Read Jeff and Paulo all the time and learn but don't fully grasp the physics from their posts. Will ask Phil. Don't know of a good discussion of modern design like the old book "Favorable and unfavorable features......" I read eons ago.

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Yes- if he wants to stay married and I do. (GRIN)

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post #743 of 847 Old 03-20-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Wow, aluminum, hard chine, with a flippie keel, we may need a new category all together. I must say I am a true traditionalist but that boat is a vision of loveliness.
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post #744 of 847 Old 03-20-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

This whole discussion gets back to what I was trying to say earlier. While it is possible to identify some traits that can be broadly associated with a particular keel type, or any other broad generality for that matter, the reality is that boats work as a system and no matter what the collection of parts, a good design will be a joy to sail no matter what its parts are named (Full, fin, attached, spade, cutter, fractional, masthead etc). and a poor design will be harder and riskier to sail.

When I look at boats by Atkins or Carl Schumaker, these were designers who knew their stuff and rarely got it wrong. Once you learn to sail these kinds of boats, they can make great sidekicks....regardless of their keel types.

Jeff


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post #745 of 847 Old 03-20-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
You guys will see places I never will with my draft. I just want to catch up and try to get to some of the places you've been. Just weirded me out the boat tracks better than my old tayana double ender even when surfing. As regards wives had the same experience -she picked the boat off a short menu. Read Jeff and Paulo all the time and learn but don't fully grasp the physics from their posts. Will ask Phil. Don't know of a good discussion of modern design like the old book "Favorable and unfavorable features......" I read eons ago.

.... (GRIN)
I try to be as intuitive as I can in what regards any design explanation. You really have to make an effort

Just kidding, but I guess that if we choose s single thing in what regards its major importance in what regards last 20 years of boat design development I would say CAD. And I do not mean for designing but in what regards the immediate possibility of having a pretty good idea of what a given form alteration will produce in a sailboat performance. The programs that NA designers use are very complex and give the possibility to experiment many solutions and predict their effects, something that was a dream before, only possible then with the use of very expensive tank testing and not practical in what regards a big number of alterations.

This provided an huge quantity of information that is on the basis of the fast development that occurred on boat design on the last decades.

Regarding to rudders and fin keels the precision in what regards hydrodynamic studies have conducted to more narrow fin keels and rudders with a small area that work dynamically in a a perfect way. Very rarely a new boat does not perform exactly the way it was predicted and no modification in keel or rudder is required when before it was frequent boats to be perfected along with the production, in the rudder and keel, to give them a better balance.

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Paulo


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Last edited by PCP; 03-20-2013 at 07:08 PM.
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post #746 of 847 Old 03-20-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Play with computers all day at work and always have IT on call waiting.LOL Still, would be delighted if a generally understandable explaination of the physics(the hydrodyamics) of modern designs was available. I can explain the basic physics of fMRI.PET scanning, stereotactic radiosurgery, mEG etc to a reasonably intelligent H.S. grad ( initials after your name does not make you smart and the contrapositive is also true). I'm not a neuroradiologist but understand the basic physics. Boats can't be worse than brains. Wonder if the major players are the matched lift from the foils( keel and rudder), attachment of fluid flow to the canoe body, matched lateral planes of resistance or what. What are these guys looking at and playing with. Something like a vector diagram of the forces with an explanation would be a huge help. Think if general sailing public knew how these boats work acceptance on this side of the pond would be greater. Just saying. Love your thread Paulo, love Jeff's love for any good design done well, and will always go "what if" when I see a Boreal.

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post #747 of 847 Old 03-22-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

This is great information all. I am looking to get my first boat and I am reading and trying to absorb all the great information here.
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post #748 of 847 Old 03-22-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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This is great information all. I am looking to get my first boat and I am reading and trying to absorb all the great information here.
The best advice I can give it to charter and/or crew on a wide variety of boats under a wide variety of conditions, this will give you a feel for different boats as well as give you the chance to sail boats you could otherwise not afford.
A boat is an extension of who you are, you don't need to impress anyone except yourself. While some people might prefer old style grace and simplicity others might get off on all the gadgets, gizmos and high tech cutting edge race based designs. So my advice is to decide what YOU like best, what makes YOU feel more comfortable, what fits YOUR uses best...then listen patiently to what everyone else says, nodding politely and gleaning any pertinent information to help you make your final decision. There is no BEST BOAT, there is a huge variety of boats out there, and for a "first boat" I would think you are not looking at a factory fresh 6figure or antique wood.
The economy as it stand will provide some good deals on used boats...one last thing remember, there is no such thing as a free boat.
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post #749 of 847 Old 03-22-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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The best advice I can give it to charter and/or crew on a wide variety of boats under a wide variety of conditions, this will give you a feel for different boats as well as give you the chance to sail boats you could otherwise not afford.
....
I subscribe that. With time you will understand what to expect from each type of boat, then you have just to narrower on a good design on the type it suits you better.

Regards

Paulo


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post #750 of 847 Old 03-22-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Wolf and PCP thanks for the great advise. I was looking at something called "Sailtime". I can do bareboat charters on their boats and get to know the ropes as it were. I have been looking for awhile and I have narrowed my choice of manufacturer's to Ericson, Hunter or Catalina. I checked out some Island Packets also but just too pricey for my first boat. I will be looking for a boat between 34 and 38 feet for myself. I will be cruising the Chesapeake Bay for the first couple of years to get to know her and then after that, go out on some longer range voyages. Again thanks for the good advise!
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