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  #761  
Old 05-12-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

I can only say this on the topic. One of our people here spent the winter in the keys aboard. He did tell us of a storm that blew through in the middle of the night. The full keel boats rocked a bit and shrugged it off, the fin keel boats had a rough ride, and some of the centreboarders had a full knockdown

Not a fun way to wake up

I personally prefer a full keel for cruising. I would trade speed for stability when I am just out to have a nice sail. All the extra storage space is nice too.
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  #762  
Old 05-12-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
It's really hard to ask fin or full, for two simple reasons not all boats in either category are the same and not every ones application is the same.
I thought that Bob Perry thread about improving your boat with a fin keel had changed your opinion about the subject.

The reason why a fin keel,a modified fin keel or even a deeper full keel was not used on old boats, like the ones I posted (or even a centerboard system) was because it was impossible to do so safely with the technologies they had.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mad_machine View Post
... I would trade speed for stability when I am just out to have a nice sail. All the extra storage space is nice too.
Sailboat stability has not to do with the type of keel used but with boat design as a whole.

Regards

Paulo
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  #763  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Still, there have been modifications applied to full keel boats that improved function such as those using Henry Sheel's work or the keels with a gap in the middle which I recall were done by an englishman who's name escapes me. Unlike the Brewer's bite or cutaway forefoot the basic integrity of the design element was intact. In some respects it's unfortunate improving full keels was not further pursued.One can think of a vessel employing what we now know about attached flow/parasitic drag, tip vortexes but still having an true full keel with attached rudder. With current materials might be easier to build a very strong boat with little deformation from rig loads and reasonably shoal draft given the basic form.
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  #764  
Old 05-12-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

That is the all around best answer to the OP's question.
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  #765  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Heck! LOL I was commenting on the poster ho said it's a diffecult question to answer because not all fin or full keels are the same and everyone's needs are different.
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Yes I understood what you have said but you are mixing things. Carracks were merchant ships. Till 1800 there was a continuous evolution in what regards sailing boats all around the world. You are talking about this type of boat:



The evolution was huge. All these sailingboats are from 1400 to well before 1800:















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Yes. The first one being the long ship. I agree with you, but none of these vessels perform as well as the longship, and that was my point. Nice pics, by the way.
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  #767  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Still, there have been modifications applied to full keel boats that improved function such as those using Henry Sheel's work or the keels with a gap in the middle which I recall were done by an englishman who's name escapes me. Unlike the Brewer's bite or cutaway forefoot the basic integrity of the design element was intact. In some respects it's unfortunate improving full keels was not further pursued.One can think of a vessel employing what we now know about attached flow/parasitic drag, tip vortexes but still having an true full keel with attached rudder. With current materials might be easier to build a very strong boat with little deformation from rig loads and reasonably shoal draft given the basic form.
I am going to have to look into those designs. I am interested in learning more about that. If you can remember the name of that Englishman, it would be great.
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Jack, the basic hull design of a longboat hull would be great if we could lower the CG with external ballast what obviously could not be done at that time. The boat evolution in what regards sailboats went in the sense of increasing draft as a way to lower CG (the lower bottom of the ships were loaded with stones).

The type of hull of the longboats was not adapted to that, it had a good load capacity but would not go very deep on the water, not allowing the CG to go down substantially.

I agree that the Viking longboats were an amazing design and one that remained at the top for several hundreds of years and that is amazing.

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Re: Full or fin keel?

I will agree with you about that. They certainly could not have supported a modern Bermuda rig, with it's high center of effort. However, even with the tall, square sails which all but one replica use ( it should be noted that there is no evidence for this kind of sail being used and a replica fitted with a tall ship sail, in the late 1800's was the model for this sail ), they have sailed all over the world in longship replicas; a few circumnavigations, too. With a sail that is like those depicted in Viking artwork, like the replica Sigrid Storrada uses, much less ballast is needed than with the tall square sails. I am not actually saying that, if the carrack had not been adopted as the ship to use, we would still be sailing longships. I am saying that sailboat development would probably have advanced much sooner. Where you get, and how long it takes you to get there, depends on where you start.
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Old 05-12-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

I think that it is a mistake to think that the DNA of Viking longboats are not a part of modern yacht design. Even though larger working water craft and warships derived from Mediterranean trading vessels and evolved to better use cannons, the basic design concepts pioneered by longboats formed the conceptual basis for smaller working watercraft throughout the rim of the North Sea and was thought to be the inspiration for American whaleboat, and English canoe yawls.

Jeff
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Last edited by Jeff_H; 05-13-2013 at 02:03 PM.
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