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  #771  
Old 05-12-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

And who said otherwise? We where talking about ships. I only said that from the year 1200 to the year 1800 there was a big evolution in naval architecture and I said it regarding this statement:

"The abandonment of the longship design... set ship design back until the 1800's, really."

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 05-12-2013 at 08:53 PM.
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  #772  
Old 05-12-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I thought that Bob Perry thread about improving your boat with a fin keel had changed your opinion about the subject.

The reason why a fin keel,a modified fin keel or even a deeper full keel was not used on old boats, like the ones I posted (or even a centerboard system) was because it was impossible to do so safely with the technologies they had.



Sailboat stability has not to do with the type of keel used but with boat design as a whole.

Regards

Paulo
As I am very happy with the performance of my particular full keel in all weather conditions and all points of sail, none of the tweaks to my design from that would show enough difference to choose them over what I have already. My "antique" design (designed by William Atkin in 1936 based on New England fishing schooners of a much larger size) is not antiquated or inferior simply because of it's vintage.....our culture stresses and is supported by the thought that "new is better and anything else is inferior"...that just is not so. If you find an accurate definition of "full keel" my boat would probably not quite match, but it is not a fin keel in any respect.

Last edited by wolfenzee; 05-12-2013 at 09:05 PM.
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  #773  
Old 05-12-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
As I am very happy with the performance of my particular full keel in all weather conditions and all points of sail, none of the tweaks to my design from that would show enough difference to choose them over what I have already. My "antique" design (designed by William Atkin in 1936 based on New England fishing schooners of a much larger size) is not antiquated or inferior simply because of it's vintage.....our culture stresses and is supported by the thought that "new is better and anything else is inferior"...that just is not so. If you find an accurate definition of "full keel" my boat would probably not quite match, but it is not a fin keel in any respect.
Fact is that as I said I like your boat as a traditional one. I like traditional boats and if I had one I would not have it with a fin keel. That would not be a traditional boat no more, even if it sailed better, it would not sail like a traditional boat and if I had one ( and I had one once) it would be because I like traditional boats not something else.

If I wanted a faster and more modern boat (as I want now) I would not have a copy of a traditional one with a modern underbody, somewhat compromised by the need to follow the general dimensions of the traditional boat (beam and 2 dimensional superior view). I would have prefered a modern design with a hull completely designed for performance without any limitations.

I could have a very modern uncompromised hull in a boat with a traditional flavor, but that is a completely different affair.

Not saying that Bob's approach designed by Jeff is not adequate, I believe some would like a traditional boat with a modern underbody, just saying that I would not like it and I can understand you in what regards that.

Funny that somehow for me it seems not right a traditional boat with a modern underbody but I have nothing against a classic boat with a modern underbody. Maybe because classic boats were all about performance when they were designed or maybe because it is the way I just feel....and reason as nothing to do with it.

That does not mean that I support your idea that yacht design evolution stopped 100 years ago, but that I have pleasure in sailing an old traditional boat even if the performance it is not comparable with the one of a modern sailing boat.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 05-13-2013 at 02:03 PM.
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  #774  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Sorry I can't come up with the NAs name. Bob or Jeff probably know right off. He basically put two keels in series but continued the bottom piece to prevent leakage. I believe the idea was they would work like the "slot" on a sloop improving lift. Motivation was to achieve less draft which I believe is key in many areas of England.
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  #775  
Old 05-12-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

His name is Warwick Collins.

Etap used it on a few models.
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  #776  
Old 05-12-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Sorry I can't come up with the NAs name. Bob or Jeff probably know right off. He basically put two keels in series but continued the bottom piece to prevent leakage. I believe the idea was they would work like the "slot" on a sloop improving lift. Motivation was to achieve less draft which I believe is key in many areas of England.
Would you be thinking of Warwick Collins and his 'tandem keel'?

The Universal Hull by Warwick Collins | My Wooden Boat of the Week

EDIT... huh... Brian beat me to it!
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  #777  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Thing is about seeking a "faster boat", it doesn't take much to get my boat to hull speed, a "faster" boat might be able to accomplish that with less sail area..or maybe not. As far as performance to windward, it does very well. Basically it is a 75 year old design, which with the modest rig tweaks over the years has become a high performance boat. I am a cruising sailor, so simplicity is stressed, I don't like spinnakers but have enough canvas to trough up to give me great down wind performance, without the hassles.
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  #778  
Old 05-12-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Thanks for the info, guys. I am going to go do a little research.
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Old 05-12-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
And who said otherwise? We where talking about ships. I only said that from the year 1200 to the year 1800 there was a big evolution in naval architecture and I said it regarding this statement:

"The abandonment of the longship design... set ship design back until the 1800's, really."

Regards

Paulo
As I read the thread I think you and I were basically in agreement. I was commenting on captnjack's lament on the long boat.

Jeff
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  #780  
Old 05-13-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain jack View Post
Thanks for the info, guys. I am going to go do a little research.
If you like naval history and boat design than we share a common interest.

The ship development since the middle ages has to do with several components: Seaworthiness, Loading capacity, sail performance and defense requirements.

You are right in saying that the defense and loading requirements are many times contradictory with sail performance but those two requirements or the relative weight in the compromise were not common to all designs. On a given time there were always different compromises depending on the use that was given to the boat and there were always use for good and fast performance ships that corresponded to the best it could be made in that time.

Regarding mainstream, I mean a boat that could satisfy all those requirements that I talked about was the Gale„o (Galeon) also called Nau, developed by the Portuguese and in lesser measure by the Spanish during the XVI century.
Here a primitive example:




The boat was designed to be very seaworthy, to have a big carrying capacity and to be able to defend itself. It is a evolution of a Carrack and the first ones were designed specially for the first voyage to India under the requirements set by the most experienced and better sailor of that era, Bartolomeu Dias:

This is a replica of that boat:




There were extensive studies carried take as model a late exemplar (1606) in what regards intact stability and the results were incredible:

http://nautarch.tamu.edu/shiplab/00-...005%20IMAM.pdf

Of course this was a Portuguese ship and for the calculations of CG wine weight was also took into consideration:

"Regarding the wine, the average consumption was 0.5 l a day,
resulting in a weight of 40 t"


They would go and take all the risks, but not without wine

That strangely rounded hull and high free-boards allow it a reserve stability that we can only call modern and superior to the one of more modern and fast posterior ships.



And allowed them to carry an huge amount of sail (drawing made at that time):



Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 05-13-2013 at 07:47 AM.
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