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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Cruising & Liveaboard Forum
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  #11  
Old 12-24-2003
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Powerboat Cruising info needed

M:

It''s good to hear you are finding the feedback helpful but I don''t see in your replies an awareness of what seems to me to be the critical issue: taking a smaller powerboat offshore in areas that routinely have very difficult weather & sea conditions and routinely lead to loss of life in small powered vessels. To the extent you''re asking for input on whether your plan is viable, it strikes me you would want to look more at the nature of your passage plan and -initially - less at trying to sort out the boat.

A couple of suggestions:
1. Since you''re in the Bay Area, stop by the commercial docks and talk with some of the fishermen who work out of there. Show them pics of the boat in which you have an interest, describe its history and construction, and ask them about a summer cruise either S around Conception or N past the great capes to Puget Sound. Talk a bit about your estimated SOA and the length of time you''d need to be out there, how rapidly they see the weather systems change, how good the f''cast data is, and how they cope with the tougher stuff on their 60-80'' steel fishing boats. You might also ask them if they or any of their friends have had similar experience on passages like the ones you plan. Listen thoughtfully to what you hear.
2. If you tend to skip past them, read the USCG summary that Latitude 38 publishes each month, drafted by the CO of the SF base there. Weed past all the lost sailboarders and lost Delta ski boats and zero in on the weekend fishermen who are just doing day trips out of a protected harbor but end up being rescued or lost altogether near your home waters. Look past the individual cases to root causes, reflect on how your (small) boat will be handled differently by your (small) crew when the external forces and critical boat systems (pumps, engine, fuel & electrical systems) combine in unexpected ways.
3. Pick up a set of pilot charts or the NOAA coastal pilots for the Pacific Coast and do some ''worst case'' reviewing of what history tells us about the range of conditions out there.
4. Pick up a copy of VanDorn''s Oceanography & Seamanship - half theoretical, half based on real world experiences, much of it aboard power boats - and use it as a primer and learning tool. I think you''d find it useful since it helps move past the ''cookbook'' answers to issues like drogue size, anchor rode choice, etc. by offering impirical data from which you can work up your own answers.

If this all sounds overly dire and pessimistic, then consider you might benefit by a fuller understanding of setting off on a small boat across some big water.

You''re quite right to point out not all powerboats are the same (which BTW applies to sailboats, as well). But smaller powerboats share some common traits and common risks offshore...in those waters, especially.

BTW the word I think you were looking for re: passive roll restraints when underway is ''paravane''. ''Flopper stoppers'' at anchor can be any shape; anything horizontal and rigidly supported & restrained will work but can generate huge forces. I''ve built wood framed stoppers with wire cage screen that restrained dive suit flappers, and also used solid aluminum sheet thru which a HD 3" PVC pole was rigged (it broke the spin pole fitting). It doesn''t sound like either the nature of the boats you''re looking at nor the costs you want to incur will permit a paravane system with outriggers that would function without breaking offshore.

Good luck.

Jack
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  #12  
Old 12-25-2003
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Powerboat Cruising info needed

The boat you are looking at is the perfect boat for someone - question is that someone you? It appears to be well suited for bays and would be good - as someone said in Seattle area. Also would make a good live aboard boat. That is what I did with mine. Rather than sink tons of money into mine I kept it afloat and a little more and bought a small sail boat, but that is my path. I would be hesitant to take it outside especially in unsettled weather. As for five year cycle - not sure where you got that - not my experience. Maybe in a new boat or a just refit boat, but not in a 1933 classic. Not in any boat I''ve ever bought. There is no telling what you will need to do immediately until after the survey and even then you will be warned that somethings can not be checked without distructive testing.
Now about the milling you do - is it a bandsaw or chain saw mill? I have a chain saw mill that I use for rustic furniture.
Todd
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  #13  
Old 01-13-2004
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Thank you everyone for the input. But we are way off track from the original question. I know the boat needs work. I know it''s a money pit. I know what “Paravane” systems are and was using the term "flopperstopper" (which I know is a brand name for a plastic mushroom shaped steadying mechanism used at anchor) loosely just like Beebe himself along with James Leishman did in his book. And most other people do as well. Similar to saying Band-Aid when you mean adhesive strip or Q-tip when you mean cotton swab. I don’t know what a paravane system costs. Or if it can even be added to the boat in question.

The original question re-phrased is: What seas if any can this hull type or design handle. Does anyone have experience with this type of boat? It''s from Seattle (part of the Pacific NW) and it''s still around, so it must have some ocean handling design built in, no?

1933 built of single plank construction.
40'' LOA - 38'' LWL - 12''6" Beam - 20K Disp. - 120hp Lehman Diesel - 360gallons fuel - approx range of 1000nm - no steadying mechanism currently – Assuming I make good repairs and add electronics.

What size swell, head on would send this boat back to harbor? 6ft seas? 12ft seas?

What size beam sea would send it back to harbor?

What size following sea would send it back?

How much wind would send it back? 15knots? 20knots?

I see that it has a lot of window space. But I see a lot of trawlers with even more. Any comment on storm handling of this much glass?

The A/B ratio of this boat is very good compared to Trawlers that look to be several stories tall, relatively speaking. Yet the Trawler copies are able to travel the coast regularly.

Perhaps Freeboard is not enough on this boat?

Is the bow to low or shaped wrong for Ocean work?

In Beebe’s book he details some basic design characteristics for voyaging. He recommends a minimum of 38 feet LWL. This boat meets it. He recommends a low A/B. This boat meets it. He recommends low HP and speed ratio of 1.2. This boat meets it. He recommends a separate pilot-house (from salon) for night vision. This boat meets it. He recommends a range of 2400nm which this boat does not meet but I plan to stay along the coast and not cross oceans.

What he does not recommend is an antique boat. Which is why I wanted to ask if anyone had experience with old boats like this.

Perhaps the answer might be that this boat is only capable of good weather voyaging for short day hops up and down the coast. Ducking into harbors at any sign of weather or before dark. Perhaps I can only venture south of SF Bay and should stay away from north.

Thanks again. Gene-
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  #14  
Old 01-13-2004
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Powerboat Cruising info needed

You might want to ask the same questions at Passagemaker''s board:

http://www.trawlertravel.com/discus/board.html
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  #15  
Old 01-13-2004
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Powerboat Cruising info needed

Thanks a million!
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  #16  
Old 01-13-2004
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Powerboat Cruising info needed

slipacre,

I have a Wood-Mizer LT40-25G Hydraulic mill but I work in computers. The mill is just a hobby.

As would be the boat. I don''t intend to live-aboard. I just want to fix it up and ideally be able to do something with the finished product. That''s why I want to know what the boat can do assuming it''s restored.

Gene

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  #17  
Old 01-14-2004
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Powerboat Cruising info needed

A lot of the answer to your question is subjective. usually a boat can handle rougher conditions than we can - or at least willingly. (but then I must admit I am something of a whimp when it comes to going out in rough weather.) It also assumes the boat is in top notch condition. The rougher it gets the more strain is put on a boat and with a boat that age you want to make very sure that you will not spring a plank. You get significant leaks when that happens. This is what I would worry about more.
As for how it handles a sea. If it is currently in the water you might go aboard and have someone with another boat throw you some wakes. Not the real thing but it might give you an idea. Personally I''d keep it in relatively sheltered waters. But understand that many people have gone long distances in less and who am I to call them nuts?
That is a serious mill you have. Do you have a kiln too? I used to work in computers too. Joined a twelve step program - am powerless over end users.
Todd V
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  #18  
Old 01-14-2004
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one other thing
It is not so much the size of the waves but the period between them long is good short means steep and rougher. Also often there are more than one set of swells at a time which confound most calculations.
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  #19  
Old 01-14-2004
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Yes it''s a production type mill. I didn''t go for the SuperHydraulic becuase it is only faster. I have the same features but don''t need the extra production speed. I guess like my boat needs. I just want to go but don''t need to go either fast or in bad weather. Call me a fair weather guy. I also have the SimpleSet computer, DeBarker, LubeMizer and operator seat. I also have a 25hp 4wd FEL/Back hoe tractor to move logs around.

I found out the boat has been up to Alaska and back, possibly more than once. This was some time ago. Most of it''s recent life it''s just been a live aboard and cruised around the puget sound.

It is Carvel planked 1 3/16" Cedar over Bent Oak. Galvanized fasteners. Partially refastened and many planks replaced at various times.

I am getting the impression it would be just fine for cruising south of SF Bay with The Golden Gate being the toughest part. And of course, I would be only going out during fair weather and peak season. North of SF sounds rough for any boat.

If I can get the boat for 10K fix the wood structure of the boat for 20K outfit with electronics for 10K leaving 10K for buffer. That keeps me in the 50K range I want. If I blow 50K on something else. I could end up with old electronics. Wood needing work. Fiberglass needing work. Remember I am trying to bring this boat to operational condition. Not convert it to a 7 seas full time Passagemaker.
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  #20  
Old 02-17-2004
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So did you do it?
If so how is it working out.
Todd V
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