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post #51 of 105 Old 11-09-2012
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Re: Winter Moisture Control

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Originally Posted by TheTardis View Post
Thanks for the suggestions! All of the boat's shore power system is brand new, she previously only had DC power. I agree that the electric heaters scare me too. However, it looks like you still have to plug the oil heater in. Sorry if this sounds silly, but how are the two different in that department? What makes the oil heater safer if it is still part electric? (Originally from AZ, don't need many heaters there!) I do have some of the small propane heaters also.
Admittedly, my evidence is mostly anecdotal, but I've heard of many fires caused by heaters with exposed elements (the forced air type) where the air intake clogged with garbage, or they fell onto something and the tip-over shutoff failed, or the overtemp shutoff failed and caused fires.

I've never heard of this happening with an oil-filled unit. The element is submerged in oil. It remains submerged and contained, even if the unit tips over. The total power of the unit is dedicated to making heat. Some power of a forced-air unit is directed at driving the fan.

Any heat producing equipment that is left unattended, is dangerous. I just feel that the oil-filled units mitigate the danger a little bit.

Also, I'd like to apologize- You should NOT adapt the Coleman propane heater to a larger sized propane bottle. My earlier information was incorrect.

Some people feel that the disposable 1lb. propane bottles are dangerous because the little Schrader valves are cheap and can leak after unscrewing the bottle from the appliance.

This is true, but you can mitigate that danger by leaving the bottle screwed on, until all of the fuel is consumed. They rarely leak once attached to their appliance.

I have also just found (on the web), 1lb. propane bottle caps that allow them to be re-filled. I cannot recommend these, as I don't know anything about them. I am considering buying a pair and trying them out, and I can report back once I've learned something about them.
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post #52 of 105 Old 11-09-2012
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Re: Winter Moisture Control

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The ventilation is where the hypervent comes in(or similar product) allowing those air changes to pull the moisture out from under the mattress . However, I think that insulation makes a huge difference too, as in the example of hull temperature, if the insulation keeps the surface temperature 10-15 degrees warmer(and based on my floor vs before insulating the surface, it does) that can certainly help to prevent the condensation forming in the first place.
As a secondary benefit, if it means that the air in the boat stays warmer until it is exhausted from the boat it would mean it holds more moisture.

The hyperdry in lockers at least is less about insulating, it just prevents things from touching the hull and giving that dead air space for mold to form. I've used it in my lazarette and it's making a big difference in how wet things stay(the hatch leaks badly).
I knew about installing "things" under mattress's & cushions just never made that connection to the hull or lockers. It does make sense to use a product that allows air to circulate behind it. An air space in itself is an insulating layer. Not much of one when we look at the R value but many older buildings relied on that air space prior to the development of insulation.

My only concern would be with a solid foam, fiberboard or batt type of product. The potential for moisture to get trapped behind it & create an environment for mold is there in my mind.

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post #53 of 105 Old 11-09-2012
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Re: Winter Moisture Control

Hypervent aka "cedar breather". I've covered a roof with it before nailing cedar shake on. Does the same for the roof as .it does for your cushions.

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post #54 of 105 Old 11-09-2012
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Re: Winter Moisture Control

Guys,

The difference between an oil bath electric heater and a fan assisted "ceramic disc" type heater is like the difference between hydronic heat and forced hot air or "scorched air", as we affectionately refereed to it when I was a manufacturers rep in the HVAC business selling boilers, furnaces, radiant heating systems, radiators, baseboard etc. etc...

The oil bath heater acts more like baseboard heat or a hydronic radiator. It moves air, warms it, but does not do much to "dry" it because the surface temp is far to low to dry the air as it moves across the surface.

A fan assisted ceramic disc etc. type heater moves air across a very hot element and in the process the air has some moisture dried out of it. Eventually a good chunk of the moisture in the cabin will be dried using a scorched air type heater whether it be diesel fired or electric.. This is the same with a Webasto, or Espar type FHA diesel furnace as they do a great job at drying the air by moving the moist cabin air across a very hot heat exchanger..

Here in the North East most houses are hydronic heat because it is more comfortable and dries the air out less. Most FHA installations also need duct mounted humidifiers (Maid-O-Mist etc.) so inhabitants of the home don't suffer nose bleeds and dry cracked skin all winter long.

On a boat, that is already a moist environment, you'd actually welcome the dry air that results from moving moist air across a hot element or heat exchanger.

I work on boats all winter long and the ceramic disc "Pelonis" type heaters do a far better job at keeping moisture levels down. When I get to a boat it is often 5F - 30F inside. I can warm the air in the boat, with ceramic disc heaters, without causing much condensation to occur. Of course when I am working on these boats I always try to completely drain the bilge first so the boat is not trying to create its own eco system on top of my own breathing.

I own an number of these ceramic type heaters and they all offer tip over protection and automatic shut down features if the fan becomes blocked and the element gets too hot. The fans in them, like computer fans, draw mA's... I like them because they are small and can be placed out of the way of knock overs etc. because they take up so little floor or shelf space. I have one customer who heats his entire 42' power boat with them and it is very comfortable. His electric bill on the other hand, not so comfortable.....

Be aware that with any 1500W electric heater they draw 12.5A + on the high setting. Just two of them, plus a water heater, EXCEEDS what a single 30A shore power system can handle by over 7.5A.. If you are planning on going electric a second shore power system should ideally be added to handle the massive current used by electric heaters..
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post #55 of 105 Old 11-09-2012
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Re: Winter Moisture Control

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Originally Posted by jppp View Post
Hypervent aka "cedar breather". I've covered a roof with it before nailing cedar shake on. Does the same for the roof as .it does for your cushions.
Tried some cedar breather and roof vent products but they collapsed after use and did not want to re-bound. It lasted us about three weeks earlier this summer. Lucky for us I got it for free, was worth about that..... Hypervent and the other products designed for this use a denser membrane that re-bounds and resists crushing far better. I had the two side by side and the differences are quite a bit.

We are back to using Dri-Dek under the v-berth as nothing we've found holds up as well or stay in place as well. You have to custom cut it but once you do it will last nearly indefinitely...

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post #56 of 105 Old 11-09-2012
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The squat caframo style ones are almost impossible to tip over, and with main air intake on top and a smaller one on the bottom they work well. I have considered adding mesh over the top air intake so that air can get in even if it gets covered.
I always run the thermostat as low as will keep the cabin warm, that way if the heater vent is blocked it turns off right away.

If it fails, it is OFF. the oil heater tipped over is still hot, even assuming the tip over sensor works. I've already damaged 2 things and burnt myself on the oil heater.



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post #57 of 105 Old 11-09-2012
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Re: Winter Moisture Control

mainessail.....

When you "scorch" the air, where does the H2O go?


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post #58 of 105 Old 11-09-2012
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Quote:
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mainessail.....

When you "scorch" the air, where does the H2O go?
I was about to ask that too! I find that it does work, my boat is drier with it, but the how is a mystery.

Also to poster re: air space, that is partially true, but having a cold surface and moist air is not great. I am insulating first, then bagging the foam, later hyper dry when i can find a Canadian source. (dry dek is too expensive for me right now).
For lockers inside it will be insulation only. For lockers outside hyper dry only.



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Re: Winter Moisture Control

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
We are back to using Dri-Dek under the v-berth as nothing we've found holds up as well or stay in place as well. You have to custom cut it but once you do it will last nearly indefinitely...
We used to use this stuff on the floor of the slaughter house back when we had the farm. You're right the stuff is bullit proof.

I would have never made that connection to using it on a boat.
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post #60 of 105 Old 11-10-2012 Thread Starter
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Re: Winter Moisture Control

Thanks all! I appreciate you all taking the time to answer my questions!

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