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post #101 of 166 Old 11-24-2012
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Originally Posted by cherev View Post

There's no 'debate'; USCG boarding a vessel, moored or in motion, while wielding M-16s is an armed home invasion if you live aboard. If there's no probable cause, they've committed a criminal act. No bravery involved when an elderly sailing couple is sitting in their cockpit and wondering what the heck is going on.
So how do they know you're a liveaboard? Should live aboard have a special flag? What if I'm a drug runner / live aboard?

You paint a scene of an elderly couple in rocking chairs on their porch when SWAT come flying up. It's not exactly like that.

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If you don't set out to daily harass and molest passersby, then no risk is incurred.
Not really sure you could call it harassment... and definitely not a molestation. I've never heard an account of inappropriate touching by the Coast Guard.

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As for "doing what they're told", isn't that the 'defense' made at Nuremberg by some Nazis?
This holds a little water, it is the same defense... but you've blown it out of proportion! They are not killing, torturing nor even hurting anybody really. Be sure to remind them that you called them nazis when they are plucking from freezing water while your boat breaks up.

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No, the USA is in a very bad way, for it's evident that the Soviets and Nazis actually won the war, ideologically and practically, and those lives expended in the "defense of freedom" were ultimately wasted. Red Dawn is thus become a documentary, with daily episodes videoed by police dashboard and intersection surveillance cameras. Except the children must shoot each other.
That's pretty sensationalist. Obviously your thoughts on this have become extremely polarized, and open discussion about it is likely not possible.

Let's say they get rid of USCG, and YOU have a company and are given the task of rescuing people on the sea. Cool, look at these neat helicopters the government gave you. First little while you are a hero... saving people is cool.

Then you save some jackass that didn't even have a lifejacket on his boat! Then you get called to save a guy who tried to get to south America in a 13' guppy! Then some other dude who never sailed before, boat a 34' boat and took off without knowing how to use his gps, and without checking the weather.

All of this is $ out of your pocket. You can't buy the upgrades to equipment you need... you're having a hard time keeping up your end of the contracted area for your rescues.

Now they add to your contract that you have to catch drug runners... but they aren't paying you more.

How do you solve that? Inspections... that's how. Offer volunteer inspections, give them a sticker... but you're still needing to be sure that some idiot isn't trying to signal you with an expired flare that doesn't work.

It's not a nazi thing... it's due diligence.

-MysticGringo

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Last edited by MysticGringo; 11-24-2012 at 08:24 AM.
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post #102 of 166 Old 11-24-2012
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Re: rammed:by the customs & border patrol

Arguing with someone that has a chip on their shoulder isn't worth the time. If you can quote the criminal law that makes an armed boarding illegal, we're listening.


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post #103 of 166 Old 11-24-2012
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Re: rammed:by the customs & border patrol

"If you can quote the criminal law that makes an armed boarding illegal, we're listening. "
Is that a trick question? An armed boarding is only illegal under certain circumstances, trick question #1, it is not *always* illegal.
And the first level law that makes boardings illegal in many situations, regardless of whether they are armed or not, is of course not a criminal code, but the Fourth Amendment. Trick #2 of the question.

As for the rash of other state and federal laws that might apply, even the simple act of "brandishing" a weapon is a criminal violation in most venues. If your boarding party is pointing their M16s at anything they don't plan to shoot--that's brandishing.

Now let's come back to "boarding officers". If they are USCG they probably are not "officers" . There might be one or two officers on the boat. The rest of the boarding party? Might be gentlemen but rarely officers.
Or, they might be "Peace Officers" under state law, not military officers. In which case, really guys, you should see the psych profiles for the average LEO compared to the average thug and bully. Or maybe no one else has heaerd of hazing, harassment, occasional deaths and injuries at police academies, military academies, and similar issues? Thugs and bullies, a fine line to draw when you need macho dogs of war.

While the military & PDs have professed to try screening these guys out in recent decades, they still aren't doing a perfect job of it. A stranger with a gun is a stranger with a gun, in or out of uniform. That cuts both ways.

If a man needs a gun to feel comfortable and safe around me--he'd damn well better have a want and warrant, and a specific reason to have that weapon out. In this country, under what remains of this constitution, "SOP" is not a valid reason to draw your weapon for a routine safety inspection.

When a street cop walks into a restaurant, orders dinner, walks out without paying because it is "on the cuff", that's the same crime. A thug who has bullied someone out of a meal. These men are supposed to be civil servants--not sovereigns. And the good ones, the ones that earn my respect, damn well know that.

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post #104 of 166 Old 11-24-2012
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Re: rammed:by the customs & border patrol

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
"If you can quote the criminal law that makes an armed boarding illegal, we're listening. "
Is that a trick question? An armed boarding is only illegal under certain circumstances, trick question #1, it is not *always* illegal.
And the first level law that makes boardings illegal in many situations, regardless of whether they are armed or not, is of course not a criminal code, but the Fourth Amendment.
Have you read the posts in this thread? The SAME people who wrote the 4th amendment also granted government officers the power to board vessels without any kind of suspicion - let alone a warrant.

I wish you could go back 222 years and explain to them that some people far in the future will live on their boats, you might have gotten them to limit that power to merchant vessels. But it's too late. Now, you'll have to get the law changed.

Last edited by patrickbryant; 11-24-2012 at 07:45 PM.
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post #105 of 166 Old 11-24-2012
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Re: rammed:by the customs & border patrol

Hasn't the Supreme Court held that marine boardings are not protected by the fourth amendment? Their job is to interpret the constitution. p.s. the constitution is, in fact, law.

An armed boarding is armed, not necessary drawn and pointed at you. Threatening, belligerent, mouthy captains should be shot on sight. They give the rest of us a bad name.


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Re: rammed:by the customs & border patrol

Patrick, the same folks who wrote the charter for the Confederacy, which failed and was replaced by our current Federal Republic, also decided that only some 20% of the citizens should be allowed to vote and direct the nation. If we can modify that, it doesn't take the wisdom of Solomon to figure out which vessel is also a personal effect, and needs to be given the same sanction as a any other carriage or conveyance. Searching incoming merchantmen from overseas, one thing. Searching the home boys...not quite the same.
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Re: rammed:by the customs & border patrol

The pseudo-patriots in this thread would have supported the British in eliminating the colonists in their pursuit of freedom.

How much pain do you want before you say enough?
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post #108 of 166 Old 11-29-2012
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Re: rammed:by the customs & border patrol

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Originally Posted by bljones View Post
Boarded ELEVEN TIMES in 4000 miles?
I'd be asking myself, why am i attracting unwanted attention and how do i stop doing it?


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post #109 of 166 Old 11-29-2012
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Re: rammed:by the customs & border patrol

You might try installing an AIS transponder. If you were a smuggler, it isn't likely that you'd be sailing around broadcasting your identity and position on AIS.

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post #110 of 166 Old 11-30-2012
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Re: rammed:by the customs & border patrol

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Originally Posted by chucklesR View Post
Brew,

I can't come to the rescue and cite the law, but I can say that (as I said earlier) refusal of a request to search is indeed all the probable cause (when coupled to the reasons the officer wanted to do the search e.g. shifty eyes, reefer smell, etc..) that is necessary for a warrant. I work for a police agency - in the five years I've done so not one request has been denied.
In that case, I would expect any evidence gleaned from such a search to be excluded, usually at a prelim, and the case never make it to trial. Granted, it's been 30 since I was a reserve officer, but that much has not changed since then. Any judge signing a warrant because the subject had "shifty eyes" and declined to grant permission to search would wind up getting overturned left and right. PC has to be legitimate and reasonable.
(Sorry if this has already been covered by an LEO or attorney, catching up on thread.)
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