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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Cruising and Sailing with Children
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Cruising and Sailing with Children All things sailing and kids related, from safety to life aboard.


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  #31  
Old 08-31-2012
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Re: Kid overboad plan

on a lighter note, my kids are older, out of school and still like to live at home cause dad is a good cook. So, the lake is warm, every one wears a PFD and if one goes over, i trim the sails and try to squeeze out another knot..
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Old 08-31-2012
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Re: Kid overboad plan

great thread by the way!
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Old 08-31-2012
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Re: Kid overboad plan

Thanks for the input. I should have added that our current kid overboard plan is for the day sailing we do in a small area of Galveston Bay. There's usually lots of other boats around and if somehow our daughter manages to fall in, my goal is to keep her calm and float with her until we get picked up. If we were to do more extensive sailing, we would have the kids tethered.
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Old 08-31-2012
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Re: Kid overboad plan

Or, you can just sail along with your kid tied to the back of the boat like below.

(Kidding, obviously, though we were at drift in this picture which is why we had him tethered for swimming.)

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Old 08-31-2012
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Re: Kid overboad plan

Hylyte - You are thinking rationally and making perfect sense. You are not thinking like a momma bear whose cub is in danger. The insticnt is to protect the cub at all costs. This is very hard to overcome. I agree, keeping the kid on the boat is the best solution. However, not being prepared for what will happen if/when the kid goes over is irresponsible. Even if that includes dealing with two people overboard. Not everyone will be rational in an emergency and assuming they will can be dangerous. We've all heard it before... prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
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Old 12-08-2012
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Re: Kid overboad plan

The most common drowning victims are typically adult males that don't wear life jackets and drink alcohol. Vast majority of drowning 80%+ are due to not wearing a life-jacket.

Children, especially young boys are likely to follow their fathers example -- are the second most likely group.
In adverse weather, or night time sailing a jacklined tether is advisable.
If you'd like to practice KOB, when the time comes, you have to be there.
In Canada at least, 43% of people that drowned were within 7feet of shore, i.e. on dock.
So you have every reason to be wearing a life-jacket, on boat AND on dock much like a seatbelt.

Our KOB plan starts at birth, with infant "swimming" or acclimating our child to the water, teaching them to relax, enjoy it and float. Eventually when they are 2, they should be able to do some basic swimming autonomously.

Of course everyone in the family is to wear lifejackets on the dock and the boat, though can take them off in the cabin.
Jacklines are to be installed on the boat, fore-and-aft, stopping a few feet short of transom,
so if fallen overboard rather than being dragged behind, are alongside it.
2 tethers, one 3ft another 6ft, so can switch jacklines safely. 3ft recomended length.
To have lifejacket on before climbing stairs out of cabin,
To hook tether in to the jacklines before stepping on deck.

In the case a tether snaps, or some other unforseen circumstance..
Considering they'll already be wearing their lifejacket properly,
can throw in a bouyant flag pole for easier location in higher sea,
train them to swim towards the flag and hold onto it.
Have wife as the spotter, with boat hook, and rope ladder ready.
come to a halt near the flag, catch it with boat hook, make sure kid is on it,
bring them around to the transon to get on with the ladder,
or have winch ready to hoist them up by the safety harness straps.

In terms of lifejackets, I only trust the solid kind, too many points of failure in inflatables.

Jumping in after someone is potentially fatal and should be avoided,
I've heard of, and had my own personal experience, that saving a drowning person is dangerous, since they aren't swimming properly and so try to climb on top of you, thus not letting you breathe. The only way to save a panicking person by swiming to them is to knock them out first, which I would strongly discourage for children with their thin skulls and all. So the best method is to give them something to grab onto, i.e. flag-pole, boat-hook, rope-ladder, until they are safely aboard.

The whole acclimitizing to water and teaching them basics of floatation and swimmiing helps reduce chance of panicking. Up here in Canada, also winter-swimming is on the agenda, in order to get over "cold-water-shock" where in the first few seconds of hitting cold water, heart rate and breathing rate increase, unexperienced people may inhale water by accident, wheras experienced people can use it to swim to surface, get to the flag, get into heat-saving position, and then can do rapid "breath of fire" tumo meditation while they wait for the boat to return and pick them up.

In cold water, it is good idea to have winching system ready, as after 10 minutes in freezing water, fine motor skills don't function, so climbing boarding ladder may be difficult. In terms of hypothermia treatment, warm dry cabin, warm blankets, warm hugs, warm water, warm fire, warm dry clothing, and encouragement on a job well done, exhileration of living. Later on another day, can go over what went wrong, and make plans to avert similar scenario in future.

Last edited by elspru; 12-08-2012 at 01:25 AM.
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  #37  
Old 12-12-2012
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Re: Kid overboad plan

Quote:
Originally Posted by elspru View Post
The most common drowning victims are typically adult males that don't wear life jackets and drink alcohol. Vast majority of drowning 80%+ are due to not wearing a life-jacket.

Children, especially young boys are likely to follow their fathers example -- are the second most likely group.
In adverse weather, or night time sailing a jacklined tether is advisable.
If you'd like to practice KOB, when the time comes, you have to be there.
In Canada at least, 43% of people that drowned were within 7feet of shore, i.e. on dock.
So you have every reason to be wearing a life-jacket, on boat AND on dock much like a seatbelt.
I'm not sure how old your kids are, but the key is teaching them how to swim. I think we agree on that. The inflateables are not acceptable for children under a certain age (I cannot remember the age). The best LJ's are the mustangs for kids up to about 60 lbs, then we switch off to a more traditional and comfortable jacket.

Comfort is the key to wearing a life jacket for any long periods of time. WHen the kids are old enough to legally wear a inflateable, they will have one. Exception is offshore, but that is another discussion.

We do not wear LJ's at the dock. DO you and your kids really do that? I NEVER see that, and I know a LOT of cruising kids and parents. Now, mind you in WA, I think it is a law up to a certain age. No getting around that. But certainly down here, no way they would wear them at the dock. Just teach them to swim and (what we always do) point out the exit spots on the docks. It is a wonder how many people fail at simply pointing out the exits from the docks.

I suspect most of the people that die at the docks either hit freezing cold water and went into shock, or were plastered/drunk. All the drownings I am aware of were from people being drunk. Unless you outlaw alcohol on the water, that statistic will never change. But since we can assume your child is not drunk, shock and learning to swim are the two key components to preventing drowning. If I were around water where falling in was lethal, I would consider a LJ and for my children too. Honestly, though, when the water is that cold we typically avoid the boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elspru View Post
In terms of lifejackets, I only trust the solid kind, too many points of failure in inflatables.
I don't agree with that. Moreso, by having the harness an intregal part of the jacket, they are more likely to be worn and used when they otherwise might not. Regular harnesses are terribly uncomofortable when also added into a offshore LJ, not to mention any other gear you would put on. I would not sacrifice safety in terms of comfort, but I believe a well made inflateable with integral harness is perfectly safe for offshore use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elspru View Post
Jumping in after someone is potentially fatal and should be avoided,
I've heard of, and had my own personal experience, that saving a drowning person is dangerous, since they aren't swimming properly and so try to climb on top of you, thus not letting you breathe. The only way to save a panicking person by swiming to them is to knock them out first, which I would strongly discourage for children with their thin skulls and all. So the best method is to give them something to grab onto, i.e. flag-pole, boat-hook, rope-ladder, until they are safely aboard.
No offense, but that is absolutely incorrect. I was a Red Cross certified Life Guard for six years. That was how I made my money to go to college. I have never heard of knocking someone out to rescue them. Where did you read that?? Crap, if you are going to do that, just let them drown and then go after them. One of several correct methods is to swim under them and come up behind them and place your arm across their shoulder and under the other arm. A better option is to swim to them with another life preserver and let them grab onto that while towing them back to shore. It is absolutely true that a drowning person will try and pull you under, but there are ways out of that too. I have rescued MANY drowning people, and most of them adults (believe it or not). Going into the water is a last option, but sometimes you have no choice. THere are reasonable and safe ways to do it that don't include knocking someone out. I have never heard of that in my life. I certainly can't immagine someone doing that to their child, and most children simply won't have the ability to pull down an adult unless the adult is a sucky swimmer.

The greater danger as this thread pertains to, is not that the adult will be killed as the child pulls them under, the issue is that now you have TWO people to rescue AND you have lost a lookout. In a flat lake in summer, that may not be a big deal. But in any seas, you can lose sight of a person very quickly... seconds actually. Now you have lost your lookout (who may or may not make it to the child), you have to resuce an adult too, and you have to handle the vessel on your own. It is a terrible idea to jump in the water after a child unless they went in without their lifejacket and the time to turn around would mean death. I cannot imagine that circumsance with a safety minded parent, but that is about the only way I can see to even consider it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elspru View Post
The whole acclimitizing to water and teaching them basics of floatation and swimmiing helps reduce chance of panicking. Up here in Canada, also winter-swimming is on the agenda, in order to get over "cold-water-shock" where in the first few seconds of hitting cold water, heart rate and breathing rate increase, unexperienced people may inhale water by accident, wheras experienced people can use it to swim to surface, get to the flag, get into heat-saving position, and then can do rapid "breath of fire" tumo meditation while they wait for the boat to return and pick them up.

In cold water, it is good idea to have winching system ready, as after 10 minutes in freezing water, fine motor skills don't function, so climbing boarding ladder may be difficult. In terms of hypothermia treatment, warm dry cabin, warm blankets, warm hugs, warm water, warm fire, warm dry clothing, and encouragement on a job well done, exhileration of living. Later on another day, can go over what went wrong, and make plans to avert similar scenario in future.
How do you "acclimate" for that? Do you really throw your child or adult in the water and tell them what to do? Aren't you concerned about serious medical conditions happening, like a stroke or shock? I understand talking this through with others and children, but I cannot imagine actually doing it. Seems terribly dangerous to me. Also, I thought the time to rescue was under five minutes? I guess it all depends on the water temp, the persons fat content, clothing, etc.

Brian
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  #38  
Old 12-13-2012
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Re: Kid overboad plan

That's very interesting cruisingdad,
I didn't know about those methods of saving drowning people,
I especially like the one with the extra life-jacket to tow them in.
Admitedly I never had any kind of lifesaving or swimming classes,
guess it's just a commonly accepted urban legend around here method I shared.

Indeed going immediately into freezing water without previous experience probably isn't a good idea.
That's where people get those "under 5 minute" statistics, it's when people succumb to cold-shock,
true hypothermia take s amuch longer period of time. for freezing water, and it doesn't get much colder than that, it's 10 minutes for fine motor, half an hour for large motor, and about an hour till unconsciousness, afterwhich there is still a chance of ressucitation, espeically children.


In terms of acclimating to cold water, it's done in stages, in terms of starting with bath warm water, to simply warm water, to cool water, cold water, and only then freezing water.

When I was a baby my parents acclimated me in a similar manner, and said they even bathed me in water that was too cold for them :-S, anyways but now I have a very high cold tolerance, and ability to generate heat.
Usually even now when it's hovering around freezing temperatures outside I only wear a sweater, gloves and hat. If it gets to +5C or more I don't need the hat or gloves.

Anyways ya, also perhaps living in Florida and such it may seem foreign to you, but winter swimming is a tradition amongst hardy northern folk, typically in accompanyment with a hot sauna. We break a hole through the ice in the winter and dunk ourselves or swim for under a minute or so to be on the safe side. Afterwards hurrying back to the sauna to warm up. It's great fun and can be quite exhilerating both physically and socially.

Anyways also I guess since your in florida it's quite warm there,
so perhaps the tradiitonal solid vests are too hot for you, I dono.
In Canada generally people are much more safety conscious,
everyone puts on a seat belt when they get into a car,
and obeys traffic lights even in the middle of the night.
Also at every dinghy and educational yacht club I've been to,
everyone puts on a PFD before stepping on the dock.

Though admitedly when poweryachting at family events on my spouse's dad's boat nobody wears a life-jacket/PFD, and he also drinks beer rather freely.

I personally find PFD's quite comfortable, and don't see why I wouldn't wear them for safety, at least on our family boat. Typically what everyone else is doing does little to effect how I do things, since I make conscious decisions about my actions, based on facts and evidence. If I make a good habit of doing something in a safe way, then on the off chance that I'm inebriated or tired and trip, i'll be safe.

Besides, lots of people drive cars, drink alcohol, eat meat, become obese and malnutritoned, so what? There are clearly better and safer ways of living, such as a primarily plant based diet with calorie restriction and optimal nutrition. My only drugs are nutrients lol, mmm raw sunflower lecithin - enhanced attention and dream recall.

btw our kids are still on the way, have a baby boy due in late April.
we're saving up to buy a boat, likely in spring of 2014.
I'm taking some boating essentials coarse and
getting more sailing experience next year.
Can take family for first yacht sail :-).

Last edited by elspru; 12-13-2012 at 01:29 AM.
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Re: Kid overboad plan

Quote:
Originally Posted by elspru View Post
That's very interesting cruisingdad,
I didn't know about those methods of saving drowning people,
I especially like the one with the extra life-jacket to tow them in.
Admitedly I never had any kind of lifesaving or swimming classes,
guess it's just a commonly accepted urban legend around here method I shared.

Indeed going immediately into freezing water without previous experience probably isn't a good idea.
That's where people get those "under 5 minute" statistics, it's when people succumb to cold-shock,
true hypothermia take s amuch longer period of time. for freezing water, and it doesn't get much colder than that, it's 10 minutes for fine motor, half an hour for large motor, and about an hour till unconsciousness, afterwhich there is still a chance of ressucitation, espeically children.


In terms of acclimating to cold water, it's done in stages, in terms of starting with bath warm water, to simply warm water, to cool water, cold water, and only then freezing water.

When I was a baby my parents acclimated me in a similar manner, and said they even bathed me in water that was too cold for them :-S, anyways but now I have a very high cold tolerance, and ability to generate heat.
Usually even now when it's hovering around freezing temperatures outside I only wear a sweater, gloves and hat. If it gets to +5C or more I don't need the hat or gloves.

Anyways ya, also perhaps living in Florida and such it may seem foreign to you, but winter swimming is a tradition amongst hardy northern folk, typically in accompanyment with a hot sauna. We break a hole through the ice in the winter and dunk ourselves or swim for under a minute or so to be on the safe side. Afterwards hurrying back to the sauna to warm up. It's great fun and can be quite exhilerating both physically and socially.

Anyways also I guess since your in florida it's quite warm there,
so perhaps the tradiitonal solid vests are too hot for you, I dono.
In Canada generally people are much more safety conscious,
everyone puts on a seat belt when they get into a car,
and obeys traffic lights even in the middle of the night.
Also at every dinghy and educational yacht club I've been to,
everyone puts on a PFD before stepping on the dock.

Though admitedly when poweryachting at family events on my spouse's dad's boat nobody wears a life-jacket/PFD, and he also drinks beer rather freely.

I personally find PFD's quite comfortable, and don't see why I wouldn't wear them for safety, at least on our family boat. Typically what everyone else is doing does little to effect how I do things, since I make conscious decisions about my actions, based on facts and evidence. If I make a good habit of doing something in a safe way, then on the off chance that I'm inebriated or tired and trip, i'll be safe.

Besides, lots of people drive cars, drink alcohol, eat meat, become obese and malnutritoned, so what? There are clearly better and safer ways of living, such as a primarily plant based diet with calorie restriction and optimal nutrition. My only drugs are nutrients lol, mmm raw sunflower lecithin - enhanced attention and dream recall.

btw our kids are still on the way, have a baby boy due in late April.
we're saving up to buy a boat, likely in spring of 2014.
I'm taking some boating essentials coarse and
getting more sailing experience next year.
Can take family for first yacht sail :-).
With all due respect, and I know you Canadians have thicker skin than us South FLorida boys, but I sure hope you discuss washing your child in freezing water with your pedi before doing it. I would be shocked if any physician were ok with that. And quite frankly, I still don't see the point. Sounds uneccesarily dangerous to me, and painful for the child. Also sounds like a great way to catch a horrendous cold.

Is your wife ok with that? Mine would hit me over the head with a skillet and throw me into the bathwater.

None of my business, I guess. I am just surprised by some of the customs of my Northern Friends. Maybe I live a sheltered life where we wear sweaters when the temps hit 70 and a full wet suit when the water is 75!

Brian
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  #40  
Old 12-13-2012
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Re: Kid overboad plan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
With all due respect, and I know you Canadians have thicker skin than us South FLorida boys, but I sure hope you discuss washing your child in freezing water with your pedi before doing it. I would be shocked if any physician were ok with that.
"My dad was a physician and he really believed you needed to acclimate to the cold and the only way you can do it is to swim in colder water." from
Cold Water Swimmer - Yankee Magazine


Quote:
And quite frankly, I still don't see the point. Sounds uneccesarily dangerous to me, and painful for the child. Also sounds like a great way to catch a horrendous cold.
Er that's not really how colds work, there are a variety of factors at play for it.
Typically if you have healthy gut flora, then colds are almost non-existent.


Quote:
Is your wife ok with that? Mine would hit me over the head with a skillet and throw me into the bathwater.
Oh ya she's okay with it.
She was initially hesitant about baby swimming in general, till she found out how common it was.

Though ya, don't intend to bathe the baby in water any colder than we can handle comfortably. The most important part of infant swimming/floating is that they enjoy themselves.

Quote:
None of my business, I guess. I am just surprised by some of the customs of my Northern Friends. Maybe I live a sheltered life where we wear sweaters when the temps hit 70 and a full wet suit when the water is 75!
Brian
lol that's funny, 70f or <20C is when I put on a long sleeved shirt,
anything 20-30C is t-shirt and shorts weather,
we sweat real hard at anything above 25C.
over 30 usually wear light colored long sleeves,
to minimize moisture loss and sun burn.

sweater is only for <10C 50f,
same for wetsuits, as water never goes above 25C anyways,
except maybe in some small ponds and inlets.

The benefit of the northern latitudes,
is that there is more oxygen, so can think more,
and people can grow bigger.
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