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Cruising and Sailing with Children All things sailing and kids related, from safety to life aboard.


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  #21  
Old 12-11-2012
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Re: My son's first 'car'...

Congratulations to your son! I remember my first boat. It was given to my father by a friend who purchased a new boat. The owner of that boat said that the purchaser HAD to take it as a condition of the sale. It was a sailfish type. The deck-hull joint leaked and the foam filler had expanded to crack the hull. The daggerboard trunk was constricted by the foam. There was no Daggerboard. The sail was a Sabot sail and mast.

I had to design a new daggerboard and cut a hole that was big enough for the new board to fit. I had to glass over the hull crack. I had to restich the sail is places. I also had NO money so this was done with second hand materials.

I sailed that boat for a year until it was stolen from the dinghy racks at the marina. It may not have been very seaworthy, but it was a heck of a lot of fun.
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Old 12-12-2012
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Re: My son's first 'car'...

Quote:
Originally Posted by elspru View Post
I just hope you're aware that small open powerboats are the most dangerous form of boating, statistically speaking. In Canada 37% of boat-drownings happen in small open powerboats. with only 4% being in sailboats, which are even marginally safer than paddle boats. http://www.redcross.ca/cmslib/genera...wn_english.pdf
In the US it's much more bleak with 7/10 boating deaths in US are in power boats under 21 feet. Boating Accident Statistics and about a third of those open-motorboaters die of causes other than drowning (I don't even want to think about what those might be) http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/1/...Statistics.pdf

Though ultimately it's up to you and your kids. I see they aren't wearing life jackets on the boat, so perhaps safety isn't a priority. Though personally I'd rather see both you and them to have safe, long and happy lives. :-)

In terms of our kids, when they come of age i.e. 16 or as soon as they are ready afterwards, planning on getting them liveaboard sailboats, likely without engines -- they usually only cost about twice as much as a dinghy used. Then they'll be ahead of the pack in terms of having the resources to start their own lives and live independently.
I just hope you're aware that statistics show helicopter parenting turns out some whacked out kids.

(PS - As safety is a priority, don't forget to make yours wear helmets aboard their motorless liveaboards. Since they'll be "ahead of the pack and independent" - i.e. - alone, no one will be around to help them after a spill.)
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  #23  
Old 12-12-2012
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Re: My son's first 'car'...

Quote:
Originally Posted by elspru View Post
I just hope you're aware that small open powerboats are the most dangerous form of boating, statistically speaking. In Canada 37% of boat-drownings happen in small open powerboats. with only 4% being in sailboats, which are even marginally safer than paddle boats. http://www.redcross.ca/cmslib/genera...wn_english.pdf
In the US it's much more bleak with 7/10 boating deaths in US are in power boats under 21 feet. Boating Accident Statistics and about a third of those open-motorboaters die of causes other than drowning (I don't even want to think about what those might be) http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/1/...Statistics.pdf

Though ultimately it's up to you and your kids. I see they aren't wearing life jackets on the boat, so perhaps safety isn't a priority. Though personally I'd rather see both you and them to have safe, long and happy lives. :-)

In terms of our kids, when they come of age i.e. 16 or as soon as they are ready afterwards, planning on getting them liveaboard sailboats, likely without engines -- they usually only cost about twice as much as a dinghy used. Then they'll be ahead of the pack in terms of having the resources to start their own lives and live independently.

Hi Elspru,

Wow. Sobering statistics. But I would be interested in knowing how many of those were from inflateables? I also wonder what percentage boats under 21 feet make up? I susepct many of those deaths are ski boats or small fishing boats as they have a lot of power and are small. In essense, in this example, I suspect the statistics are misleading. You simply cannot go very fast in a tender (especially that tender), you are limited in your range, and your waters must be pretty calm.

We are full time cruisers and my kids have been on a boat all of their lives. I actually had them steering around three years old (with me right beside them). They probably have more time at sea than most of the folks who post on this forum. And because we live aboard and cruise, it is important to give them some freedoms built upon responsibilities. Would I rather have them under my thumb all day and watch everything they do? Well sure. But that is not what is really best for them. I give them some freedoms which expand or contract based upon the matuirty they show with it. The number one maturity is safety. THey have a very small circle that they can go outside of when on the tender, and I always know where they are and they have communication (both HH VFH and cell phone). Contrary to what you might perceive, safety is and always has been my #1 prioity with them. It has to be. I'm sorry doesn't cut it.

Regarding life jackets: They ALWAYS wear them in the tender. THe pic you saw was them sitting in it for a picture tied to the docks. Not only is it against my rules to have them go out without a LJ, it is against FL and USCG rules. You only saw a photo op which we caught while they were tied to the dock. Minutes later, they had a jacket on (before they left the dock).

Under way, our rules are that if they are outside of the cabin, they wear a jacket. The exception is when anchored or when at the marina. I do not make them wear a jacket when walking around the marina. I used to, before they could swim really well. Of interest is that the only time they have gone in the drink (four times total between them) is at the marina. But they can swim well now and they know what to do when they fall in. I think in WA, they are required to have a jacket on even at the marina docks. At least, that is what I recall from our time on the sound. Different down here - the water is warmer which doesn't make it so critical.

I hope that clears some things up?

On a completely different subject, I personally would not put my kids on a sailboat without a motor. A motor is a serious safety item. Reality is that up in the PNW (yes, we lived there for over a year and sailed the sound), the winds are incredibly light, the currents are very swift, and the water is deadly cold. I can think of a thousand reasons to have a motor, but can't come up with a single reason not to have one. If a thunder storm or cold front were coming, or if someone was injured or man overboard, having a motor that allows you to quickly turn around or make way without the need for wind is imperative for us.

We do own a Compaq 16. I would not live aboard it, but it was fun to teach the kids the basics of sailing. However, I would never put them in the sound by themselves with it. That water is deadly cold. I think in Vancouver, we lose like 6 people a year in the summer when they fall into the Columbia. I think that was the statistc. They literally go into shock and don't come back up, or not for long. And how long do you have to turn that boat around and get them out of the water before Hypothermia kicks in? Was it 5 minutes I think? I would hate to think I had that little of time and the only thing that would allow me to get back to them was the wind. Not to mention, the problem with small sailboats is that most of them are notoriously tender. One good Sport Fish on a half plane can swamp them. I know this from experience.

Like you said, everyone has to have their own comfort zone. I am giving you my opinions from someone who had their kids aboard at 5 days old and who has always cruised with kids. It does not make my opinion correct, just experienced and based upon our location and time on the water.

Thanks again for the feedback and time. Look forward to seeing you on the water with your kiddos. Honestly, I cannot imagine what it would be like being without mine on a boat!! I don't look forward to that day.

Take care,

Brian
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  #24  
Old 12-12-2012
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Re: My son's first 'car'...

Brian,

Too bad it's an inflatible, with a RIB you can get some nice neon green, purple, red or what ever color he likes and pimp that boat up by painting the glass.
You/he can still do that to the transom and engine - make it special and highly visible at the same time.
I would not go so far as to add some chrome work, but YMMV.

The exterior paints the make for hypalon and PVC boats is also a good deal, easy to apply and visually well worth the effort.

Don't worry about the nay-sayers - your kids probably have more time and experience driving dinghy's that most sailors do. I'm lucky to get a donzen hours of dinghy driving in during a season.
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Old 12-12-2012
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Re: My son's first 'car'...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucklesR View Post
Brian,

Too bad it's an inflatible, with a RIB you can get some nice neon green, purple, red or what ever color he likes and pimp that boat up by painting the glass.
You/he can still do that to the transom and engine - make it special and highly visible at the same time.
I would not go so far as to add some chrome work, but YMMV.

The exterior paints the make for hypalon and PVC boats is also a good deal, easy to apply and visually well worth the effort.

Don't worry about the nay-sayers - your kids probably have more time and experience driving dinghy's that most sailors do. I'm lucky to get a donzen hours of dinghy driving in during a season.
Already got the paint!!!! It is a flourescent orange and green (Bob Marley style). To be honest, it is to keep someone from stealing the motor and dink though. However, I feel sorry for the person that does steal that motor or tender... they are in for a real dissapointment!!

Thanks Chuckles!!!

Brian
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  #26  
Old 12-12-2012
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Re: My son's first 'car'...

I've found another way to keep an inflatable safe from thieves ..... oyster the sucker.
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  #27  
Old 12-13-2012
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Re: My son's first 'car'...

Hmmm, ya likely many of those statistics do pertain to the fast moving boats, it seems that truly speed is the main issue. In terms of the statisitics they don't include ski-boats or personal watercraft, however they may include small open fishing and recreational "racing" boats.
Unmotored inflatables are some of the safest, though I guess if the motor doesn't push it much beyond 7 knots it should be as safe as sailing.

In terms of sailing, I can't imagine how a thunderstorm could roll in without wind, so I don't really see that as a plausibile issue. Similarly to a motorboat it does require expeirence to operate, though you can't run out of fuel, so that's an added bonus. The power of the sailboat actually goes up proportionally to the wind speed, so always have enough power to get home. Also I wasn't really recommending a small sailing dinghy but a sailing yacht i.e. greater than 21 feet, even 22 is good, they can trade up later.

It's better than a college fund I think, since it's a home, a vehicle, and means of livelihood. Also much cheaper *shrugs*. I've been to university, and to be honest, it was dull, I can learn a lot more from the internet. Only good part about it was I found my spouse there - admitedly during a brief period after quiting to find myself for a year.

I know my parents tried to kick me out as soon as I stopped taking university seriously, same with my spouse, so perhaps you'll find yourself in a similar situation of wanting to eject them from the nest one day. At which point getting them a sailing yacht is a great idea. I had to do a bunch of deep magic to get an apartment and stable income.

Also the sooner your kids get their own place, and livelihood,
the sooner you can have grandkids and such :-).
Though ya, of course it's up to you, and your soon to be adult children.

I'm happy to hear that they do wear their life jackets when using the inflatables :-).
18-24 is the er most tender time for statistics... :-S all the hormones and identity crisis.
It's the time I was most interested in finding out what I was seperate from parents and external influence.
Though I dono, maybe other people don't go through that phase?
hmmm, so it's an Erikson's stage os psychosocial development,
Erikson's stages of psychosocial development - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

guess this is mildly OT, but I think it's related to why I think they should at least have the opportunity to have a full fledged sailboat yacht, rather than a mere dinghy.

"The problem of adolescence is one of role confusion—a reluctance to commit which may haunt a person into his mature years. Given the right conditions—and Erikson believes these are essentially having enough space and time, a psychosocial moratorium, when a person can freely experiment and explore—what may emerge is a firm sense of identity, an emotional and deep awareness of who he or she is."

Yes this is what worked for me, I was very confused, having all these demands from my parents, of what to do, and what they expected of me, it was only after quiting university, and being a hermit in the basement for a year or so, that I figured out what I wanted from life, that was seperate from what my parents or society wanted from me. Now I live a pretty happy life if I do say so myself.

My main concern I guess, is that boats don't have much room, to do a hermitage like that.
Typically this definition of identity happens between 13-19 though may be till mid to later 20's:

"Erikson does note that the time of Identity crisis for persons of genius is frequently prolonged. He further notes that in our industrial society, identity formation tends to be long, because it takes us so long to gain the skills needed for adulthood’s tasks in our technological world. So… we do not have an exact time span in which to find ourselves. It doesn't happen automatically at eighteen or at twenty-one. A very approximate rule of thumb for our society would put the end somewhere in one's twenties"

With a sailboat yacht of their own, they'll be able to discover who they are, have more peer relations, and things like that, allowing them to become more whole and complete beings. Though since the onset of these identity crisis' things does usually happen later in our industrial societies, it's probably best to consult with them when they are ready. Sure moving into the basement isn't the same as getting a new boat, but it practicall was, as I had my own bathroom, kitchen, and place to throw parties for friends. During the 13-19 years it's peers and role models which are the significant relationships.
I threw parties every few weeks, starting around 13 or 14.
It's similar for my almost 16yr brother, his friends seem much more important than either myself or my parents, he plays video games with his peer friends all the time, as he's in some gifted program where they all have too many extra-curricular activities to have person-to-person interacitons. so ya there is a bit of generation gap but *shrugs* still same stage really.

Last edited by elspru; 12-13-2012 at 12:07 PM. Reason: psycho social development
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  #28  
Old 12-13-2012
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Re: My son's first 'car'...

Quote:
Originally Posted by elspru View Post
Hmmm, ya likely many of those statistics do pertain to the fast moving boats, it seems that truly speed is the main issue. In terms of the statisitics they don't include ski-boats or personal watercraft, however they may include small open fishing and recreational "racing" boats.
Unmotored inflatables are some of the safest, though I guess if the motor doesn't push it much beyond 7 knots it should be as safe as sailing.

In terms of sailing, I can't imagine how a thunderstorm could roll in without wind, so I don't really see that as a plausibile issue. Similarly to a motorboat it does require expeirence to operate, though you can't run out of fuel, so that's an added bonus. The power of the sailboat actually goes up proportionally to the wind speed, so always have enough power to get home. Also I wasn't really recommending a small sailing dinghy but a sailing yacht i.e. greater than 21 feet, even 22 is good, they can trade up later.

It's better than a college fund I think, since it's a home, a vehicle, and means of livelihood. Also much cheaper *shrugs*. I've been to university, and to be honest, it was dull, I can learn a lot more from the internet. Only good part about it was I found my spouse there.

I know my parents tried to kick me out as soon as I stopped taking university seriously, same with my spouse, so perhaps you'll find yourself in a similar situation of wanting to eject them from the nest one day. At which point getting them a sailing yacht is a great idea. I had to do a bunch of deep magic to get an apartment and stable income.

Also the sooner your kids get their own place, and livelihood,
the sooner you can have grandkids and such :-).
Though ya, of course it's up to you, and your soon to be adult children.

I'm happy to hear that they do wear their life jackets when using the inflatables :-).
18-24 is the er most tender time for statistics... :-S all the hormones and identity crisis.
It's the time I was most interested in finding out what I was seperate from parents and external influence.
Though I dono, maybe other people don't go through that phase?
hmmm, so it's an Erikson's stage os psychosocial development,
Erikson's stages of psychosocial development - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

guess this is mildly OT, but I think it's related to why I think they should at least have the opportunity to have a full fledged sailboat yacht, rather than a mere dinghy.

"The problem of adolescence is one of role confusion—a reluctance to commit which may haunt a person into his mature years. Given the right conditions—and Erikson believes these are essentially having enough space and time, a psychosocial moratorium, when a person can freely experiment and explore—what may emerge is a firm sense of identity, an emotional and deep awareness of who he or she is."

Yes this is what worked for me, I was very confused, having all these demands from my parents, of what to do, and what they expected of me, it was only after quiting university, and being a hermit in the basement for a year or so, that I figured out what I wanted from life, that was seperate from what my parents or society wanted from me. Now I live a pretty happy life if I do say so myself.

My main concern I guess, is that boats don't have much room, to do a hermitage like that.
Typically this definition of identity happens between 13-19 though may be till mid to later 20's:

"Erikson does note that the time of Identity crisis for persons of genius is frequently prolonged. He further notes that in our industrial society, identity formation tends to be long, because it takes us so long to gain the skills needed for adulthood’s tasks in our technological world. So… we do not have an exact time span in which to find ourselves. It doesn't happen automatically at eighteen or at twenty-one. A very approximate rule of thumb for our society would put the end somewhere in one's twenties"

With a sailboat yacht of their own, they'll be able to discover who they are, have more peer relations, and things like that, allowing them to become more whole and complete beings. Though since the onset of these identity crisis' things does usually happen later in our industrial societies, it's probably best to consult with them when they are ready. Sure moving into the basement isn't the same as getting a new boat, but it practicall was, as I had my own bathroom, kitchen, and place to throw parties for friends. During the 13-19 years it's peers and role models which are the significant relationships.
I threw parties every few weeks, starting around 13 or 14.
It's similar for my almost 16yr brother, his friends seem much more important than either myself or my parents, he plays video games with his peer friends all the time, as he's in some gifted program where they all have too many extra-curricular activities to have person-to-person interacitons. so ya there is a bit of generation gap but *shrugs* still same stage really.
Regarding the comment about thunderstorms and wind, that is corect. You get wind... too much. It is not unusual to have nothing (dead calm) before the storm then get 50-60 kts. Half of that can knock down a 2X footer. Also, most small 2x footer sailboats are notoriously tender and are easily swamped. For example, the last boat I remember sinking was a Catalina 22, got caught in a thinderstorm, broached, knocked down, cockpit filled with water followed by the cabin, and down she went. It goes about that fast too.

Anyways, all that is a long way off for you. I wouldn't even bother thinking about it, unless you are considering getting a sailboat without engine for your family. I have to assume you are fairly young if you are just now starting your family, so let me say that your interests ad outlooks on life will change vastly over the next many years. Kids have a way of hastening that too.

For now, just look forward to having your kiddo in this world and enjoy the sleep and freedom you can get before he/she comes. Cuz let me tell ya brother, afterwards, sleep will become more precious to you and your wife than food and even the simplest of things you took for granted are now major chores. That being said, having kids is the most wonderful part of my life. Hope it is for you two also.

Brian
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  #29  
Old 02-04-2013
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Re: My son's first 'car'...

my first boat was a minifish with a sunfish rig... was a lot of fun and fast little boat for a 13 year old...

as for the statistics of drowning in an open boat.. how many of those people who drowned were found with their fly open? I understand that the majority of fishermen who drown were trying to take a pee when they fell overboard
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Old 02-05-2013
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Re: My son's first 'car'...

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Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
Well, this was more fun than I thought it would be. My oldest just got his first car. Do you remember your first car? I am 41 and my first car was a 1959 Ford F150. It wasn't the classic version either, if you know what I mean! But I learned a lot and that made me able to fix problems when they came up.

Chase's first car won't be any different. In fact, it is the old family car. It's an Avon/WM 310 HPIB. I won't tell you my true feelings for it (other than it has been sitting happily in storage for some years now). I even ripped out a nice corner of it on a coral head and its patch is almost as large as the dink!!! Powering it is a wonderfully cursed 6 hp Mercury 4 stroke (called a 4 stroke because that is how many times I kick it with my foot when it craps out). But you want to know what? He didn't care. Our little project together.

Hope he learns as much about cars and engines as I was forced to... and enjoys every minute of it. THe rest of the dock did. We had many LA's coming out to shoot pics of it and cheer him on as he splashed it.

Brian

PS His reward for getting his boat was passing his boating test in the 90-100%. Kids in FL must take a boaters education course to operate any motor boat. He did it. I find him schooling me on some things now.



Hmmmm...Thats great

So your are making him a powerboater. His first boat is a powerboat. Wheres the grill? Laughing here. Congrats to him hell love it.

Its great he loves the water, but of course you model that so well. My daughter who now owns a C27, Her first was a Lightning then bought our old Hobie 16 from me.

You realize you have gotten older when you are sitting in the right hand seat having your child drive you.

When I read the title I thought real car. Ill never forget teacher her how to drive. She is 4'11 99 lbs. and needed a pillow to sit on. At the time I lived in Ocean Vity , NJ amd the exit from the island ran into a major circle. Circle in NJ are not just bengin rotaries like NE, they are often 3 major roads feeding into them. She had drivers ed so I was just sitting in the right seat giving her some practice time and decided to head to the Garden Styate Parkway to get hiway experience.

As we are heading out the old Ocean City Causeway and go over the second intercoastal bridge the circle is dead in front off us. She calls out to me.."Dad I have never been in a circle before what do I do"? I told her get in and get out but cars in the circle have the right of way. We went around that damn circle 20 times as she locked up. I was getting dzzy when I just blurted out. Get agrgressive and pick a road. She had come of age and another " Jersey Driver" was made.
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