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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance > Engines > Diesel
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Diesel This is a new forum dedicated to diesel engines and their applicable accessories.


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  #11  
Old 07-22-2013
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Re: Yanmar hard starting question

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Originally Posted by Dave Montgomery View Post
Hi all, I have 3gm30 in my C&C which when cold or simply not run for awhile is difficult to start and requires quite a bit of throttle to get it going. It thens runs a bit rough (5-10 sec) until it seems to "clear out" and then runs good. When started it smokes quite a bit (black) but then stops smoking. Overall a good running motor except when starting up.

Thoughts??

Thanks, Dave M.
http://www.yanmarmarine.co.uk/pdfs/s...al/EPB5494.pdf

See page 398 Chapter 13-10 for cold starting procedures
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Old 07-22-2013
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Re: Yanmar hard starting question

The Yanmar tractor "glow plug" is actually installed in the air intake and makes a small fire.
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Old 07-22-2013
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Re: Yanmar hard starting question

Mark, I've met plenty of Volvo and Westerbleak [sic] marine diesels, none of which had glow plugs. So it isn't just a Yanmar thing. You know, why increase the cost of the engine by maybe $500-1000 by adding in some equipment that most buyers will never miss not having, when just getting them to upgrade to a diesel at all was such a hard job? (Going back to the A4 days, which really weren't so long ago when we're talking about old boats built in the early 80's.) And yes, i'd expect that the extra machining on the head, the inventory and assembly of the injectors, the added electrical wiring and all, would have to add at least $500 onto the sale price of a boat.

As for oil additives...like religion, feel free to chose your own and believe in it. Modern motor oils are also radically different from what was out there in the 70's or even the early 80's, and if you are buying the right motor oil to begin with, there should be no need to add "Secret sauce".

The first time I did an oil analysis, or I should say the first time I had one done, I was totally baffled to find high molybdenum content. I know what moly can do, I just had no idea the premium oil I was using, had a healthy dose of it already included to do that. Thnk of it as "Purina Engine Chow", the bottle really does have everything your engine needs to have healthy fur and gleaming eyes.
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Old 07-23-2013
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Re: Yanmar hard starting question

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
if you are buying the right motor oil to begin with, there should be no need to add "Secret sauce".
I don't know how much the various "secret sauces" cost, but wouldn't it be simpler to just use synthetic oil in the first place?
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Old 07-23-2013
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Re: Yanmar hard starting question

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Originally Posted by Rusty123 View Post
I don't know how much the various "secret sauces" cost, but wouldn't it be simpler to just use synthetic oil in the first place?
As someone with over 25 years of experience in maintaining and repairing diesel engines I recommended the use of Power Service and Lucas Oil Additives, this is because I know a whole lot more about diesel engines than most of you will ever know. These are not "secret sauces" they are tested and proven commercial additives used by companies like J.B. Hunt, Schneider, Swift, Werner, Halliburton, KBR, Nabors, and hundreds of other large companies because it works. Now if you want to listen to someone who is not a diesel mechanic, has zero diesel engines in his shop to be rebuilt, and thinks that most marine diesels do not have glow plugs because he has seen one or two without them, go ahead.

I hate giving advice on here because there will always be some ding a ling who thinks he knows more than someone with literally thousand of hours of training and experience who will come along and tell everyone how the expert and highly trained professional is wrong. I wander if a doctor were telling you that you should take a certain medicine if you wanted to live longer, would you go to a palm reader and take their advice instead? Would you prefer the advice of someone who earns a six figure income because he knows diesel systems, or the advice of a person who sells doughnuts or something for a living?

Do whatever you want with your engine, believe that glow plugs cause fires, or whatever other nonsense you want to believe, but until you have one of these little motors torn down in your shop that someone is paying you to rebuild it might be wise to listen to someone who knows what he is talking about. Try buying some of that "original type"oil sometime, it is not out there because the EPA would not allow the process which was used to make the oil in 1965 today. Secret sauce...yeah.
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Re: Yanmar hard starting question

Hey Mark,

Although you quoted my question, your reply seems directed at the posts of others, rather than mine.

To restate my question using different words, wouldn't synthetic oil be a better choice than mineral oil with an additive?

I could see a fleet operation choosing the mineral oil/additive approach due to cost factors, but for the average sailboat engine, which probably only has an oil change once or twice a year, the extra cost for synthetic oil wouldn't be all that significant.
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Re: Yanmar hard starting question

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Originally Posted by Rusty123 View Post
Hey Mark,

Although you quoted my question, your reply seems directed at the posts of others, rather than mine.

To restate my question using different words, wouldn't synthetic oil be a better choice than mineral oil with an additive?

I could see a fleet operation choosing the mineral oil/additive approach due to cost factors, but for the average sailboat engine, which probably only has an oil change once or twice a year, the extra cost for synthetic oil wouldn't be all that significant.
We do not use mineral oil, we use petroleum based oils with Lucas Oil treatment to help provide an even viscosity at all temperatures. The Lucas helps the oil to adhere to the metal as it should especially when cold starting
and this helps maintain good compression. We add it to synthetics and petroleum normal oils. The thing is that every oil used now needs to have some help, the EPA has made the producers use processes which take away a lot of the lubricating effects of diesel by removing the sulfurs and other things that are supposedly going to keep the motors from polluting as much. Now we have to add stuff to gas and oil and diesel...

The Power Service Diesel Kleen is a fuel polisher, and injection system maintenance product, the Lucas is designed to help maintain the oil in a good lubricating condition, while not allowing it to gum up. Some people call these additives "secret sauces" while real mechanics know that they are maintenance lubricants and additives. Most people do not know that there are bacteria which grow very well in fuel, and you must treat the tank to prevent the growth, which is part of the reason why I use these products as well.
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Re: Yanmar hard starting question

Thanks Mark.

If I understand you correctly, you advocate the use of an oil additive in both synthetic and petroleum based oils. Do you have a position regarding the choice between synthetic or petroleum oil? It's my understanding that sythetic oil inherently possesses many of the advantages you mention (things like stable viscosity, metal affinity, contaminant dispersion, etc.).

With regards to fuel additives, I've seen here and other other threads that you advocate both Lucas and Power Clean. For purposes of lubricity, there is a report floating around that rates "Opti-Lube XPD Diesel Improver" at the top of the heap (actually, the report rates biodiesel at the top for lubricity, but you'd still need a separate additive for cetane, etc.). Any opinion on that product?

Also, you mention biologic contamination. I assume you're referring to the use of biocide in diesel fuel -- but isn't that a separate product? (In other words, Lucas and Power Clean don't contain a biocide, do they)?

Russ
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Re: Yanmar hard starting question

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Originally Posted by Rusty123 View Post
Thanks Mark.

If I understand you correctly, you advocate the use of an oil additive in both synthetic and petroleum based oils. Do you have a position regarding the choice between synthetic or petroleum oil? It's my understanding that sythetic oil inherently possesses many of the advantages you mention (things like stable viscosity, metal affinity, contaminant dispersion, etc.).

With regards to fuel additives, I've seen here and other other threads that you advocate both Lucas and Power Clean. For purposes of lubricity, there is a report floating around that rates "Opti-Lube XPD Diesel Improver" at the top of the heap (actually, the report rates biodiesel at the top for lubricity, but you'd still need a separate additive for cetane, etc.). Any opinion on that product?

Also, you mention biologic contamination. I assume you're referring to the use of biocide in diesel fuel -- but isn't that a separate product? (In other words, Lucas and Power Clean don't contain a biocide, do they)?

Russ
The Power Service brand Diesel Kleen product has a lubricity booster and comes in two formulas, one is a cetane booster the other is just to polish the fuel and clean the system. Power Service brand Bio Kleen is the biocide product they sell, it works very well in conjunction with the other products. The Lucas is what I prefer for the oil, and I have used it for many years. I have used Slick 50, which has the teflon additive in it years ago, but I am not even sure it is still on the market, and while it did everything it was said to do, I just did not really think it was needed most of the time.

I have not tested or used the Opti-Lube product, and have not gotten any service bulletins or notes on it, so I really cannot say anything about it. I will say that Power Service is what I recommend because it is available world wide and is not too pricey. I highly recommend against any use of bio-diesel products in any form in any engine, and can tell you that the stuff is acidic, toxic to motors like you would not believe, and should be banned completely as a fraud and scam. It costs less right now because of subsidies, take them away and it is going to be much more costly than petro diesel. The decrease in fuel mileage already makes it more costly over the long term, add in the injector and cylinder damage and it is highly costly to operate.

On oil, I recommend rotella from shell for diesel engines, the reason being is that synthetics are not as available when cruising, and the life of the oil is not that much greater. In our commercial semi trucks we go 40k miles between oil changes with a filter change at 20k miles, or 30k miles with no filter change. A typical engine lasts about 1 million miles with no rebuild and indefinitely with the rebuilds on our road tractors. The use of synthetics showed us no increase or decrease, the key is routine regular maintenance, good maintenance will give a life of service that will outlast the platform the engine is in, whether it is a truck or a boat.

I do recommend synthetic oils in differentials, transmissions, and other non combustion units. It performs well and has an extended change interval that is markedly longer. Although the synthetic oil manufacturers have said that the change interval in engines can be extended, the cost is not good enough to justify it when you factor in the multiple filter changes that are required when you run extended service periods in a truck engine, which is one of the many reasons I would not run it in my engines.

The science of lubrication has come a long way, but there is a lot of room for improvement, and I would very much like to see EPA made to chunk out the whole urea additive program and reburner setups and be able to go to a much more efficient engine in a two stroke that would reduce particulate by gallon of fuel more than the current methods. The two cycle diesels got twice the fuel mileage at the same horsepower ratings, and could have been improved even more. The four cycle diesels were headed to a point where fuel efficiency was going to be a lot higher too, until the corn growers and others got involved and EPA made us go to the new setups that use urea or a reburner system, and those both dropped fuel economy per gallon by as much as 30%, so in overall per gallon burned particulates you actually see a drop, but in particulates per mile you see an increase of as much as 20% or more due to fuel economy. When you burn more fuel you produce more pollution, it is simple to see, but EPA are simpletons and cannot see it.
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Thumbs up Re: Yanmar hard starting question

Good stuff, thanks Mark.
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