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post #41 of 86 Old 07-30-2013
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Re: Conversion to oil as coolant?

"Hello, you assume a lot."
Yup. I assume there are no scorpions in my boots because I'm not in the desert, and that local physics will allow me to get out of bed and stand on the floor without going through it from a gravitational divergence.

"The first incorrect assumption is that you would use about twelve horsepower to maintain that 75 mph speed."
Nope. Not my assumption, but what a highly credentialled combustion engineer, who made a good living from his patent licenses, taught me years ago. If 12 is wrong, it is still ballpark today. Now I'll grant you that a bad automatic transmission used to eat more than 5hp and an AC compressor could eat five more, but we're talking about the engine propelling the car, not running toys, so I'll stand at "12" for the car, and leave the toys out of it. If that's "20" that's still the same compared to the 300+hp rating of the engine.

", and you need to factor in wind drag, hills, and other things,"
Not relevant. That's like asking how many hp you need to drive a boat against a hurricane in Force10+ instead of on flat water.

"You probably will be running a higher percentage of the engine's RPM rating, somewhere around 65% at cruise," More like 50%, but that's with a tiny engine designed for a wide rpm range with a primitive transmission.

"You can assume that because it came from Volkswagen it must be junk, "
On the contrary, I'm the one who suggested a VW industrial diesel engine as the solution, and I've not said a bad word about it. The 1930's designed Beetle engines are something very different. As were a later generation (1980s?) that really hurt their sales after a number of problems involving the valves and oil consumption, as I recall. There was a good ten years when you couldn't give away a VW after that.

VW's classic boxer engines were widely considered to be "fine junk" by most of the automotive industry. By the 1960's the 1930's design was obsolete. And inefficient. Cheap? Sure. Reliable? Well, I know someone who burned out three or four of them in his Beetle who'd disagree. And then there's Subaru, who licensed the boxer engine because they couldn't get anything better, and spent fifty years turning it into something better. But the original Beetles? And a number of the later engines? No, no one in the engineering side of the auto business admired those. Not my opinion or assumption. VW has come a long way--in the past decade. But wait, you're saying VW partnered with Mercury to gain Mercury's experience...isn't that slamming VW for not having enough on their own? Or is it that you're confusing my remarks about VW's old gasoline engines, with their new diesels? Which I never commented on. You're the fellow who assumed I was talking about a new TDI engine instead of an old conventional diesel.

You maintain and repair diesel engines? Great! At last, one competent mechanic who really understands what he is doing. I'll still take the teaching from the combustion engineer with two PhDs and a laundry list of commercial patents (in global use) over someone who thinks my job is relevant here.

My job? Hey, maybe I'm married to the combustion engineer and I'm just a housewife. Doesn't matter much, does it?
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Re: Conversion to oil as coolant?

bl-
Never say never.


Diesel[edit]In 1951, Volkswagen prototyped a 1.3 L diesel engine. Volkswagen made only two of these air-cooled boxer diesel engines (not turbocharged), and installed one engine in a Type 1 and another in a Type 2. The diesel Beetle was time tested on the Nürburgring and achieved 0–100 km/h (0–62 mph) in 60 seconds.[38]

[38] ^ "The Diesel Beetle". ltv-vwc.org.uk. Retrieved 3 April 2008.
Wheelspin the magazine of the London VW Club, mad about Volkswagens

I'll take your word on it that the "VW" air cooled industrial diesels were conversions rather than native born engines. But if all the "Pathfinder" engines built on VW blocks aren't really VWs...does that mean Westerbleak blocks from...well...

If the damned things work, well or poorly, isn't that what really matters?
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post #43 of 86 Old 07-30-2013
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Re: Conversion to oil as coolant?

LOL- prototypes don't count, in this discussion.
To further muddy the waters, Porsche DID build an aircooled diesel tractor, but it wasn't flat-four based.


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post #44 of 86 Old 07-30-2013
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Re: Conversion to oil as coolant?

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
bl-

I'll take your word on it that the "VW" air cooled industrial diesels were conversions rather than native born engines. But if all the "Pathfinder" engines built on VW blocks aren't really VWs...does that mean Westerbleak blocks from...well...

If the damned things work, well or poorly, isn't that what really matters?
Oncxe again- the Pathfinder diesels were not aircooled. they were marinised 1.6l inline water cooled golf/jetta diesels

History of the VW Pathfinder Marine Engine

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post #45 of 86 Old 07-30-2013
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Re: Conversion to oil as coolant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post

", and you need to factor in wind drag, hills, and other things,"
Not relevant. That's like asking how many hp you need to drive a boat against a hurricane in Force10+ instead of on flat water.
Actually, you cannot take away toys like the alternator, cooling pumps, any engine fans, and if you use it the A/C in your car and still have an honest answer to how many HP are used while moving the car. Just like you cannot take away the alternator, water pumps, A/C if you have it, and all of the other accessories on your boat. Diesel engines are kind of funny in that when operating at a set RPM they are not necessarily operating at the full fuel usage for that RPM level, gasoline engines do the same, so that the RPM's made by the engine do not at all reflect the output HP that is being made at the time.

Let's use a boat as an example, that way everyone can relate evenly to it. Let's say you are motoring along at 2500 RPM on a flat calm, and your engine has a peak HP of 30 HP at that RPM level, but you are not in a "Full Load" condition, there is no head wind, no current working against you and your boat is just slick as a pin on its bottom side, a real slippery boat in the water. You may be using about 5 HP out of the possible 30 HP that might be available to you if needed. The engine is not actually producing that much, it is in fact using a bare minimum of the fuel which is available to it in the fuel rail, just barely enough to keep it going at the setting you have it placed on.

Now take the same boat and engine, and give us a 25 knot headwind, a strong current coming onto the bow, and maybe a herd of barnacles and marine critters clinging to the hull and what happens? The engine is now in a much more fully loaded condition set and will produce the maximum HP for that RPM as required. This is controlled in the fuel pump, the ECM (if it is a computer controlled engine) or the mechanical governor (if it is a straight manual engine). Fuel is kept at a constant pressure, but it does not have to go into the engine when it is not needed, it has a bypass line on the injector loop so that any unused fuel goes back to the tank.

So, you have to look at the load, and most of the time the load is far from the maximum. You have to throw in any toys connected to the engine unless you are going to never use an alternator, A/C or water pump, much less all of the extra stuff that a boat engine will power in its minimum load state.

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Re: Conversion to oil as coolant?

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Originally Posted by bljones View Post
LOL- prototypes don't count, in this discussion.
To further muddy the waters, Porsche DID build an aircooled diesel tractor, but it wasn't flat-four based.

OOOH, a bright red porsche is just what every young man needs.... and this one would not get many speeding tickets haha.

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Re: Conversion to oil as coolant?

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Originally Posted by bljones View Post
An engine that tops out at 5500 rpm certainly couldn't be called high-revving.
It sure can for a diesel. Well, maybe not for an Audi Le Mans engine.

Volkswagen Industriemotoren: History

Quote:
The Coventry Climax engine used by Lotus in some of their most famous cars in the 50s and early 60s, was originally a firefighting water pump engine.
Wow - did that turn on my wayback machine! Indeed it was although by the time it was pushing race cars I doubt there was much water pump left except the basic design of the short block. That supports my "industrial" point as well - the Climax was pretty indestructible considering how much more highly stressed it became. (read that indestructible, not reliable!)

I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
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post #48 of 86 Old 07-30-2013
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Re: Conversion to oil as coolant?

bl-
That would sure complete any man's stable. One Porsche tractor, for the back lawn. And one Lamborghini, for the front lawn. And on weekends, hay wagon races, for the kids.

But since that's a Porsche, isn't the engine in the wrong end then?
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Re: Conversion to oil as coolant?

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But since that's a Porsche, isn't the engine in the wrong end then?
you aren't the only one who thought that- it wasn't a hugely popular

tractor or a hugely popular porsche, which maybe why it took until the mid 70s for them to try to build anything front-engined again.

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post #50 of 86 Old 07-31-2013
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Re: Conversion to oil as coolant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2gmtrans View Post
Actually, you cannot take away toys like the alternator, cooling pumps, any engine fans, and if you use it the A/C in your car and still have an honest answer to how many HP are used while moving the car. Just like you cannot take away the alternator, water pumps, A/C if you have it, and all of the other accessories on your boat. Diesel engines are kind of funny in that when operating at a set RPM they are not necessarily operating at the full fuel usage for that RPM level, gasoline engines do the same, so that the RPM's made by the engine do not at all reflect the output HP that is being made at the time.

Let's use a boat as an example, that way everyone can relate evenly to it. Let's say you are motoring along at 2500 RPM on a flat calm, and your engine has a peak HP of 30 HP at that RPM level, but you are not in a "Full Load" condition, there is no head wind, no current working against you and your boat is just slick as a pin on its bottom side, a real slippery boat in the water. You may be using about 5 HP out of the possible 30 HP that might be available to you if needed. The engine is not actually producing that much, it is in fact using a bare minimum of the fuel which is available to it in the fuel rail, just barely enough to keep it going at the setting you have it placed on.

Now take the same boat and engine, and give us a 25 knot headwind, a strong current coming onto the bow, and maybe a herd of barnacles and marine critters clinging to the hull and what happens? The engine is now in a much more fully loaded condition set and will produce the maximum HP for that RPM as required. This is controlled in the fuel pump, the ECM (if it is a computer controlled engine) or the mechanical governor (if it is a straight manual engine). Fuel is kept at a constant pressure, but it does not have to go into the engine when it is not needed, it has a bypass line on the injector loop so that any unused fuel goes back to the tank.

So, you have to look at the load, and most of the time the load is far from the maximum. You have to throw in any toys connected to the engine unless you are going to never use an alternator, A/C or water pump, much less all of the extra stuff that a boat engine will power in its minimum load state.
Unless a boat is being pushed above the capability of the motor by running down the backside of a wave, isn't the torque at the input the same, regardless of the condition of the hull? Isn't the only variable the speed of the hull through the water?

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