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Diesel This is a forum dedicated to diesel engines and their applicable accessories.


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  #21  
Old 08-03-2013
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Re: Confused about which oil weight to use

What about the ratings? SE, CE, CD, BS,/. MIL SPEC etc. I can hardly find an oil that has the correct spec any more for the Perkins 4108. I think the modern Oil is fine, just wondered about these?
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  #22  
Old 08-03-2013
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Re: Confused about which oil weight to use

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeventyr60 View Post
What about the ratings? SE, CE, CD, BS,/. MIL SPEC etc. I can hardly find an oil that has the correct spec any more for the Perkins 4108. I think the modern Oil is fine, just wondered about these?
Check out my post above. It has a link to the service ratings of modern oils. The old oils like CD, which I used to use, have been replaced. CD and many of the old classifications are now obsolete, replaced by CL4, CJ4 and CH4.
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Old 08-04-2013
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Re: Confused about which oil weight to use

I will removed the anode above the transmission and water flowed out freely there, I did not find any impediments inside, but, I did not do any scratching inside with a clotheshanger, I will do that and see what I can find out. I will also locate the freeze plugs and check those areas. Where is the second anode location? I do not see another one in the 3GMD diagrams. Also, the 3GMD runs on the raw water from the thruhaul valve. No radiator.
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Old 08-04-2013
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Re: Confused about which oil weight to use

In the manual for my 3GM30, I believe there is a water flow graphic. Maybe you can look at the one for your engine, look at the path of the water to see where there may be some clogging. The head gasket area would be my guess. Is it possible that someone put a head gasket on upside down or reversed in the past and blocked some ports? If you could isolate the head and put a LITTLE flow through it with a hose, maybe it would tell you if it was blocked. Be careful putting pressure with a hose as it can ruin the head gasket seal and get water in the cylinders. It's usually not recommended to do that but if you're going to pull the head off anyway, maybe you can try it. How many hours are on this motor? How long has it had salt water running through it? Cast iron becomes crystallized by salt water after many years and at some point actually becomes porous, especially if the engine is not flushed between uses with fresh water. Your engine is probably not old enough for that but it's something to consider. http://www.oldmarineengine.com/techn...rrosion_1.html

By the way, your 3600 RPM is quite high if you're running at that RPM continually. Most of these reach hull speed at around 2800 so revving up any higher is pushing the limit.
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  #25  
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Re: Confused about which oil weight to use

I second the high rev comment. 3600 is pushing it. Actually on most long stroke engines its starting into the "screaming" definition. You may be a little underpropped too, but just pull the throttle back off 100% to the 85 or 90% level... you engine will love you for it. 100% of capacity work on any design is hard on em.

Its not quite screaming on many of the more modern designs with square or under-square designs in light duty applications... which could be why it may not have triggered a mental alarm to you. But its definitely pushing the upper end limits on long stroke old school designs.
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Re: Confused about which oil weight to use

Thanks to both of you for your comments. I have read that I should run at the top RPM to blow out carbon, once in a while for about 15 minutes. So that is when I hit the 7.3 knots at 3600. I do usually run at 2900 and am doing about 6 knots then. I do not notice any smoke of any color coming out at that speed. So, I am wondering if I should get a mechanic to tear it down to inspect the cylinders, and hone them, and to replace the rings, -since it seems to run fine most of the time. I want to take a trip to the Bahamas, and I certainly do not want to go there with the idea that I might have a motor that is ready to die on me. How many hours labor does it take normally to tear it down, hone it, replace the rings, and re-assemble...do you know? THanks!
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Re: Confused about which oil weight to use

Since the engine is not blowing a lot of smoke, your problem is the unexplained overheating. I would investigate all the possible causes before spending many thousands to have the engine removed and rebuilt. The old saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," may apply here. These engines are tough little buggers. Are you absolutely sure it's not just a bad impeller, a blocked sea strainer? Is the pump the right pump? Is the bronze in good condition or maybe worn beyond limits? The water you're seeing coming out of the exhaust may not be adequate. Is there an air leak into the system? Check all the hoses and clamps. Is there an anti-siphon loop letting in air? Look for not-so-obvious small things before jumping. If you can't find the problem and you are not comfortable removing the head yourself, maybe paying a good mechanic for a few hours to further investigate the overheating would be a good first step before spending a lot of money. That missing thermostat is a big clue. It's likely that this is not a new problem.
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  #28  
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Re: Confused about which oil weight to use

Good day DixieJulie

Once you eliminate the simple things as mentioned above there is something to think about...

Since it is raw water cooled and salt water.... its a bad combination for any cast iron or cast steel (doubtful) engine cooling system. Even with freshwater flushes it still builds, just slower.

Not trying to alarm you and I do not know how old or how many hours are on you engine... but if its older there is a good chance of rust scale buildup inside the head's cooling passages as well as the cylinder walls cooling jacket. This restricts the flow gradually over time and they start running warmer... when it gets past the point that the thermostat can compensate by flow increases they will start to over heat. The fact someone removed the thermostat to try and increase flow may be an indicator it maybe reached and exceeded this point. In extreme conditions actually eat through the cast iron in the head into the combustion chamber or the outside. I have an old VP MD7A... that was raw water salt water cooled out of FL... When I dissembled it, you wouldn't believe what those cooling passages looked like... 30% flow at best.

But you said it was an intermittent overheat? Could be you haven't quite reach the junk point, but it could be an indicator of scale breaking loose and causing a downstream temporary blockage. If it were I experiencing this shortly before a long sail... I believe I'd be pulling the head and seriously inspecting all the cooling system, but I am mechanical and have been inside a lot of engines in my time. Usually a head pull is not all that hard or costly and you can determine many things on its condition (including the valves and cylinders).

If you do or have it done... any linage you open... replace with new... on principle. Some shops will do that by default... some not. Make sure they do. Cheap insurance.

If its only the head... a replacement head will solve part of the problem. The cylinder jacket is a bit harder and would require a total dis-assembly and cook out... and then pressure tested. That gets into major money as its a total rebuild. The problem long term is raw water cooling.

The boat I just purchased last fall is raw water cooled. Since I am swapping engines anyway I will convert to freshwater cooling and a heat exchanger just on principle. If you plan to do all salt water sails I would seriously consider this... especially if you rebuild or replace your current engine.

Before leaving on a long sail away from normal service availability... its good this happened in a way, as you can address it now.

Dave
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Old 08-05-2013
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Re: Confused about which oil weight to use

Drifting off subject a little, but to revive the old debate about whether to convert a raw water engine to fresh cooling is worth the money.
Personally, I don't believe it is. Raw water cooling is simple and cheap. The key to long engine life is frequent use and flushing with fresh water prior to any lay-up. If you are not using the engine frequently, a fresh water flush every time you shut down would be a good thing to consider. Because they don't run as hot as fresh water cooled engines, they may wear a little faster, but hey, just how many hours are we talking about over, say, a 15 year life?

Fresh water cooled engines still have salt water coming in to the heat exchanger and being discharged via the exhaust, so corrosion will occur in those components anyway. Heat exchangers usually have zincs to replace, just like those in the block of the salty engines. Heat exchanger tubes get salt-encrusted and weed in them, just like their salty mates. The difference in engine life might be 15 years for the salt (which I achieved with a Yanmar 2GM and it was still going strong when I sold it) and 20 years for fresh. Plus more hoses and another pump to deal with, and possible heat exchanger replacement at the 10-15 year mark anyway, so would the additional cost of purchase and maintenance be fully recovered in that time span? About break evens whichever choice you make, I guess.

Sure, if buying a new engine, I would consider fresh water cooling if I thought that I would be keeping the boat for more than 15 years. My current 2GM is now 6 years old and there is at least another year in the original exhaust elbow - thanks to continuous summer use and end of season fresh water flushing.
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Re: Confused about which oil weight to use

Good day avicola...

Part of that discussion would obviously be how old the boat/engine when one got it. Since I am a poor man... any boat or engine I get is about 20 or 30 years old. If one buys new and trade off every few years then its a moot point. I am not in the category, although the concept of disposable everything just always seemed so wasteful to me.

On the two engines prior to this latest one they were raw cooled in salt water... pretty much killed the engine's cast where as all the main mechanicals were totally rebuildable, refreshable, or simply just fine. I guess killing a block or a head casting simply because one can afford it just goes against my grain I guess. Cost effectiveness is minor up to a point. See, I'm from the school that proper and complete maintenance and non abuse will let an engine more or less be able to keep running almost indefinitely. It's likely I'll get 400k on my 3/4 ton V8 and better than a million on my cummins... before their first rebuild. marine is no different... take care of them and they will take care of you. Yea, manufactures and their service departments hate people like me.

The 1975 S30 Farymann antique I recently purchased is raw water cooled but was in the fresh water of the great lakes most of the last 20 years... cooling passages are in good condition... compared to 30 year old ones that came out of FL or the Chesapeake, its a diamond.

As one who restored and showed true antique engines for quite a few years... and take what many would see as just a hunk of rust and have it running inside a week or two (depending on if it was complete and you have to know what to look for), engines from the 70s and 80s are very modern in comparison to the teens and 20s. It just seems disrespectful to any engine that way by letting them just rot from the inside so to speak by killing the casting with salt water. Someday they will be 90 or 100 years old too. My oldest show engine is a runnable 1907, yes a 105 year old Callie Perfection 2 cyl inboard marine. I get a special smile bringing a 80 or 90 year old engine back to life, running for the first time after maybe 60 or 70 years of neglect.

I haven't priced heat exchangers and an extra pump yet.... maybe I won't convert if its too expensive. But then I am not sailing (yet) in saltwater only the Great Lakes. It will be converted before I do saltwater however, on my principles. The heat exchanger is disposable, the engine is not in my mind. You all are welcome to do as you like... its a semi-free country. Its just my opinion.

Dave
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