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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance > Engines > Diesel
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Diesel This is a forum dedicated to diesel engines and their applicable accessories.


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  #21  
Old 10-05-2013
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Re: Frequency of Changing Oil & Fuel Filters

I think my last post was appropriately deleted for having implied that Main Sail/SickCat... well, i wasn't very nice. I was right, but clearly inappropriate.

People, if you have questions about engine manufacturers approving of synthetic oil use, go to their sites and look. No seriously, go look. See what they say. Granted, in the case of a 1GM, it will specify API CD, an old standard mineral oil, but you will find there is a Synthetic which is hands down a better choice than standard mineral oil. Same standard, only better. Many of them offer their own brand of full synthetic (CAT, Yanmar, Penta, Mercury,etc..) or at the least, specify the API Standard to which your oil choice must belong. Finding that, you should visit the API Standards website and locate the synthetic which meets and exceeds the engine manufacturers recommendations. Unless you are educationally equipped to dismiss facts of a field you are not educated in (i assure you i am not), and you are interested in exploring the benefits of this type of upgrade, perhaps listen to qualified and current sources. I have nothing to gain, other than the respect of my customers who opt to try it. I do not put their engines at risk because the lubes i use exceed those required and are the same which come in all their latest engines, and although some decide that the change frequencies should remain the same, they still appreciate the protection the oil provide for their beloved investment.



http://www.api.org/certification-pro...GLISH_2013.pdf
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  #22  
Old 10-06-2013
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Re: Frequency of Changing Oil & Fuel Filters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahoyhoy View Post
I wouldn't expect a company like Westerbeke to give two shits about people wanting to extend the life of their engines if it meant they had to spend money to do the research.
Why do we need to resort to foul language in a legitimate discussion about engine lubes. What I quoted, and you responded to, was written by the engine manufacturer, not me, yet you dismiss them as giving two XXXX's about their customers and accuse them of not doing their research a statement for which you have no factual basis....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahoyhoy View Post
Awesome argument.
By your logic people should continue smoking cigarettes because we have heard of people who lived to be 100 and smoked 2 packs a day.
Now you've gone and related Westebeke's statement into my "logic", an insult and personal attack. You also insinuated that using conventional oils is equivalent to smoking cigarettes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahoyhoy View Post
Your objection to a vastly better product is confusing to me and your claim that engines with synthetics would die at 50k is weird and smells like bull@#%$. Oh wait, that's because it is bull@#%$.
Here we go again with the foul language all based on a misunderstanding of what I actually said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahoyhoy View Post
You don't want to use it, who cares?
Another misrepresentation. I never said I did not want to use it, you did. I had simply related manufacturer information, based on your suggestion to use synthetics and EXTEND THE OIL CHANGE INTERVALS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahoyhoy View Post
But why you would deter other people from electing to use it only fills the void in you. You are not doing them any favours.
You are so far off of what I actually said, it is not even funny. I never deterred anyone from using synthetics. I only took issue to the extension of oil change intervals, which you suggested folks could do.. I also asked a very legitimate questions that was never answered. That as "Is it necessary for the average life folks use their engines?".




Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahoyhoy View Post
Please, i won't engage you anymore on this topic, no matter how inflammatory you get,
I never got inflammatory at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahoyhoy View Post
but i encourage you to use your time researching research, done by smart people, used by smart people.
Is this a personal attack on me because I quoted Westerbeke and asked a legitimate question? Was this an insinuation that I am not a "smart person"..? Sure seems like a personal level dig to me...

You have no information as to what I have read on this subject (over the last 30+ years) or to what my sciences background is, yet because I quoted a manufacturer, and asked "is it necessary?" you automatically make the dig that synthetics are only used by "smart people". Does this mean that Cummins, Toyota etc. are not "smart" when it comes to their own oil change interval recommendations..? We know how you feel about Westerbeke but you specifically mentioned Cummins, so I included their position on oil change interval extensions from A Cummins TSB.

I would appreciate it if you could forward us a manufacturer that suggests and allows oil change intervals to be extended when synthetics are used. This is the part I took issue with, not the use of synthetics other than to ask the question, "is it necessary?". It would be nice to know which manufacturers suggest it is okay to extend oil change intervals.

I don't doubt they are out there, but I can't seem to find one as of yet. You insinuate you've done more reading on this than I have so perhaps you have this list of manufacturers that include wording about extending oil change intervals with synthetics? It would be good for all of this to know this because if we can, and the engine maker allows for this, it could reduce costs..

No manufacturer excludes synthetics that meet appropriate specifications for the engine. I never, ever suggested that they do, NEVER. Synthetics are better lubes, I never said otherwise, and in fact very early on stated they were better lubes..

I only asked; "Is this level of lubrication "necessary" to adequate engine life?"

This entire discussion started and has been around your suggestion to extend oil change intervals so can we please stick to that discussion? Can we please get a list of manufacturers that allow interval extension when synthetic lubes are used?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahoyhoy View Post
My apologies Sabreman. I start to lose my temper with passive aggressive people who make it their business to sling rhetoric around and plant misintention on others. I just don't know what he has to gain robbing people of reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahoyhoy View Post
I think my last post was appropriately deleted for having implied that Main Sail/SickCat... well, i wasn't very nice. I was right, but clearly inappropriate.
I find it sad that you need to resort to name calling by referring to me as a "SickCat" and suggesting I am passive aggressive or "robbing people of reason".

You may want to read what I write on these forums, and look at how I have consistently behaved here, over the last 10+ years, before calling me a passive aggressive or by name calling me a "SickCat".

Now can we continue to have a good discussion on lubrication without swearing, deleted posts, personal level attacks and insults?

This is a great topic and would love to discuss it further.
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Last edited by Maine Sail; 10-06-2013 at 08:49 AM.
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  #23  
Old 10-06-2013
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Re: Frequency of Changing Oil & Fuel Filters

Maine, keep up the good information. Some of the new folks have not learned of your level of experience and wisdom. I like that you don't preach, you just tell it like it is.
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  #24  
Old 10-06-2013
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Re: Frequency of Changing Oil & Fuel Filters

34crealock has it right . . . . (in MY opinion) we're lucky to have you Maine sail!
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Old 10-06-2013
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Re: Frequency of Changing Oil & Fuel Filters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
...

Now can we continue to have a good discussion on lubrication without swearing, deleted posts, personal level attacks and insults?

This is a great topic and would love to discuss it further.
FWIW one of our marina neighbors with a 4-108 such as ours, with somewhat fewer hours than ours (3450+) was convinced by some wizard or another that he would be better off using synthetic oil than the Rotella 15-40 oil he had been using since the engine was new. As anyone that has owned one knows, the 4-108 is prone to some oil seepage (which I believe is characteristic of almost all English engines). It's never very much and relatively unimportant, just somewhat inconvenient and a bit sloppy. N'any case, friend yachtsman used synthetic at his next oil change, against the advice of several of his neighbors--me included, choosing to rely instead on supposed wizard at Auto Zone/Discount Auto or wherever. The long and the short is than within a few running hours his engine was hemorrhaging oil into his engine pan which he only discovered when the engine began to "sound weird". So, after the rebuild, he's back to using Rotella 15-40, changed annually or every 100 hours, whichever comes first. Rather a costly, "I told you so" (which I thought but never said aloud), eh?

FWIW...
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Last edited by svHyLyte; 10-06-2013 at 09:45 AM. Reason: Correct typo
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  #26  
Old 10-06-2013
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Re: Frequency of Changing Oil & Fuel Filters

When it comes to engine oil advice, even from the most respected engine makers, it pays to bear in mind what happened to the entire Detroit auto industry, which basically was the entire US auto industry, in the 60's.

If you owned a Chevy, Ford, Chrysler, anything made in the US and sold by a US franchised dealership, you were told that your warranty was VOID IF ANYONE EXCEPT THE DEALER DID THE OIL CHANGE. On the schedule and with the products that the dealer recommended.

DIY and your engine warranty was void.

That enlightened behavior was taken to the US federal court system, who ruled the behavior to be illegal competition against trade. As a result, today, you can use any damn oil you want, however you want, and the engine maker has to prove that your actions damaged their engine, or else they have to honor the warranty.

So much for the objectivity of engine makers, one and all. They want to sell engines, sell service at their franchises, and generally, they are engaged in a zero-sum gain, where they only make money if they can take it from you.

Sometimes the players have incentives you'd never think about, and the oil companies actually pay a premium to have their oil loaded in new engines at the factory. The same way that beverage companies pay supermarkets and bodegas to get the best placement on their shelves.

But if you look at the objective tests, or have your own oil analysis done, funny thing, no one has disproved the claims that the synthetic oil makers have been making. And most of them say right on the bottle, that they will make good on any engine damage found to be caused by their product.
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  #27  
Old 10-06-2013
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Re: Frequency of Changing Oil & Fuel Filters

A question I haven't seen answered is if using synthetic oil negates the issues of acids/corrosives in the oil. My gut says that issue will be present regardless of the oil as long as we have internal combustion engines so while the synthetics may give you a long time between changes you'll still need to change oil before winter storage/periods of non-use.
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Old 10-06-2013
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Re: Frequency of Changing Oil & Fuel Filters

AFAIK the only real difference in synthetic oil is that the "oil" molecules are manufactured to a higher standard. However, since synthetics are usually sold as premium oils, they also usually carry a more expensive load of additives, and it is the additives that fight corrosion and do all sorts of other good things. Mobil1 contains a lot of moly (molybdenum disulphide?) which is an excellent metal-on-metal lubricant. Kendall is pushing some mystical titanium coating, claiming it titanium plates metals in the engine. But the stuff that fights acids, etc? Harder to quantify, but since they are pushing longer oil change durations, they would have to put in more additives to cover the longer oil change period. In theory.

More good reasons to do an oil analysis. It may run $25 a shot, but one baseline, and then one a year later to see if you need to change oil more often or less, isn't a bad investment considering how many oil changes or engine jobs it may save in the longer run. Anything else is basically shooting craps.
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  #29  
Old 10-06-2013
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Re: Frequency of Changing Oil & Fuel Filters

Sounds like a great topic for Practical Sailor to tackle.
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  #30  
Old 10-07-2013
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Re: Frequency of Changing Oil & Fuel Filters

I think Maine has the real issue here. How many failures are due to oil related failures? Will synthetic help a motor last longer than one that has proper 100 hour or once a year changes? I doubt it, at least not in a sailboat. In a trawler that does a few hundred hours a week yes it might, but I doubt it will in a sailboat. What is the main cause for failures in a sailboat, I think from my years of watching the forums, (as I have not yet experienced one) it seems to be overheating and head gaskets that are the biggest downfall not bearing failures. An impeller breaks or intake gets clogged and the motor overheats. Often due to safety issues you are not able to turn it off in time to prevent damage. Perhaps some issues may be caused with rings and valve stems, but normally not fatal, just oil burning and extra smoke. I don't think the wear on these heavy duty low RPM engines is enough to justify the expense of synthetic as they are unlikely to see any benefit at all. Who really cares if the bearings are like new if what is likely to do the engine is a cracked head or block after an overheating incident.

I know I use synthetic on all of my personal cars. I had a Miata that was just shy of 200,000 miles when I sold it, but that is a very different scenario from a marine diesel. That was hard driven HIGH RPM use. I tracked the car, and auto crossed it so it would spend hours at a time at or near red line. I changed oil depending on use, about 8,000 miles of street use and after every track event. It did not burn or leak a drop of oil and I switched it to synthetic oil at around 70,000 miles. My BMW uses synthetic as factory recommended but I change it more than recommended. I drive about 18,000 a year and change it every six months. I just think 15,000 is to long to go without oil analysis. Since the analysis costs about the same as a change then it seems to me smarter to just change it because if it comes back as needing to be changed it costs twice as much (cost of analysis and cost of oil). Cars are a different animal, as they are not low RPM and light duty motors.

Sailboats with perhaps twice a year changes, is all they need for a long long life. Unless of course you have a Volvo, we all know they will blow up anytime!
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