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  #1  
Old 11-24-2013
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Eric's 5416 Rebuild

Eric you post about rebuilding your engine was the most hopeful post about rebuilding an older diesel I have ever heard
Hopefully you wouldn't mind answering some questions.

I have reposted your original comments below.

I copied Eric's post from another thread as I have a bunch of questions for him. Hopefully Eric will

Quote:
Universal 5416, similar engine to the 5411 rebuild

Basically renewed all the wearing surfaces in the engine and am well pleased with the result.

I'll try to answer your questions in one post, it might get kinda long. Here goes:

I'm not a mechanic but pretty mechanically inclined having rebuilt several car and motorcycle engines in a previous life.... Also Selkie is the third "project" boat I have owned, however I think she will be a keeper.

Engine came as part of a "project" boat. Salt water had entered the crankcase after failure of shaft seals on raw water pump, which went unnoticed or ignored by PO until engine quit. Lots of surface rust on internals of engine. Raw water pump is on same shaft as the governor and the fuel injection pump, all of these were toast, as were the governor shaft bearings. Cylinder head was missing, as in I did not get one with engine.

I picked up a used cylinder head in fair condition, but after some attempts to get the engine to run (it did run, but poorly), I decided to tear the engine completely down and replace or restore every worn component, unless I came across something that forced me to condemn the entire engine.

The single most important thing in the entire project was finding an automotive machine shop and machine shop manager/head machinist that I could both trust and work with. I did this by taking the recommendations of the local Kubota dealer's mechanic, along with other recommendations from a couple of ex-mechanics I happen to know nearby. I also bought most of my parts through the local Kubota dealer, but also bought some from online sources. I used Kubota OE parts whenever available.

Basically I did all the dis-assembly and re-assembly work. I stripped the block down to the last nut and bolt, but did not touch the transmission besides changing the fluid in it. I also did all the parts sourcing and ordering. I did not find a rebuild 'kit', everything had to be order part by part.

I removed the motor from the boat using our marina's hand operated mast crane, and made a wooden dolly to transport and work on the engine. The work given to the machine shop included - measuring of component dimensions to determine if they needed replacement; the rebuilding of the alternator and starter; cleaning/de-greasing and paint removal from engine; and all the machining work described below.


So here's a list of what I replaced with new components:

cylinder sleeves, pistons and rings.
cylinder head valves, valve seats, valve guides, valve seals.
pushrods and tappets.
rod bearings, wrist pin bearings, crankshaft main and thrust bearings.
governor internals (balls, circlips, cone, sleeves etc).
governor shaft bearings.
fuel injection pump, fuel injectors.
raw water pump (changed to oberdorfer from sherwood).
all internal seals and gaskets.
engine mounts.

Here is what the machine shop did:

-cleaned inside and outside of all components, stripped paint and sandblasted corrosion off as needed.
-measuring of component dimensions to determine what work should be done
-pressed out old cylinder sleeves and pressed in and re-bored new ones
-skimmed cylinder head face and cylinder block deck
-cut out and replaced valve seats to restore proper valve clearance (critical for good compression)
- removed and replaced valve guides; lapped in new valves and reassembled head with new valve seals
- ground crankshaft journals to correct dimension for new (oversize) bearings
-inspect and polish camshaft journals
- pressed in bearings and seals as needed
-removed and replaced all block plugs, thoroughly cleaned oil and coolant passageways.
-rebuilt OE alternator (including new bearings, brushes and regulator)
-rebuilt OE starter (including new bearings, brushes and solenoid)

Costs:

Machine shop bill: $720 (I was surprised that it was not more)
Rebuild starter and alternator: $150
Biggest ticket Components:
Fuel injection pump: $300
Injectors: $200 (for two)
Raw water pump: $240
Engine mounts: $140 (for 3)
All other parts total: $700 (approx)
Special tools: $40 (oversize deep socket and adapter)

Total cost: $2490.

Although not included here, I also made a new engine panel with all new switches, gauges and senders (oil pressure, volts, water temp, rpm). The cost of this is not included above.

I have a few photos of the dis-assembly and re-assembly, they are not very informative but I can post them if anyone is interested.

Hope this helps, contact me for more info or questions I'm bound to have forgotten
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Last edited by Faster; 11-24-2013 at 10:56 PM. Reason: separated quoted portion of post
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Old 11-24-2013
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Re: Eric's 5416 Rebuild

So here goes with my questions:

Now that you are all done what condition do you figure the engine is in now? Good for another 20K hours, effectively new again?

The machine shop guy you found was he a marine diesel guy or automotive gas guy?

Were there people you talked to that you wouldn't couldn't use? Why?
IOW what exactly are you looking for in a machinist?

Am I right is figuring that if the engine was not rebuildable you would have found out fairly quickly?

What for example would cause the engine to be trashed?

The engine did not come with the head. I would have no idea where to look for a replacement head, how did you go about that?

I get that you removed the engine but did you then disassemble the whole block, removing, cylinders, crank shaft etc? and just give your machinist a box of parts?

I'm assuming you found some kind of shop manual for the engine to know all the clearances to give to the machisist, is that right?

Did you source part locally, or use an internet source, if so who.

If you had to do it over would you do anything different?

How long ago was this project?


Who assembled everything? If you did how did you know or learn how to do it?

Did you start the engine the first time. What was that process like.?

Sorry about all the questions but this sounds like a really great story and one that ends well too!!
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Old 11-25-2013
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Re: Eric's 5416 Rebuild

David,

Good questions. I'll try to answer


Re: Eric's 5416 Rebuild
So here goes with my questions:

[I]Now that you are all done what condition do you figure the engine is in now? Good for another 20K hours, effectively new again?

I think it is as close to new again as I could get. I wanted to replace or restore all the surfaces that showed wear and tear or damage. The only major component not changed out or machined was the camshaft, because it checked out ok dimensionally and had no significant damage.

As for how long I expect it to last?, I have heard on this forum people wiser than me give time-between-rebuild intervals between 1k and 5k hours. Given that this engine had accumulated about 1K hours in 33 years, that sounds reasonable.

The machine shop guy you found was he a marine diesel guy or automotive gas guy?

Automotive. Mostly gas. Jensen Automotive in Ogden, Utah. Carl runs the machine shop side of the business. Welcome to Jensen Auto Service, providing auto repair services in Ogden, UT.

Were there people you talked to that you wouldn't couldn't use? Why?
IOW what exactly are you looking for in a machinist?


I knew of one other in my local area. I had used them twice, once I was very pleased once I was not. I asked the mechanic at the local Kubota dealer who he recommended and he told me he had always had good outcomes with Jensen and had been using them for many years. I also asked some auto mechanics about them and got good recommendations.

I visited Jensens and talked with Carl. The shop was clean, well organized and Carl simply gave me confidence that they knew what they were about.

Am I right is figuring that if the engine was not rebuildable you would have found out fairly quickly?

What for example would cause the engine to be trashed?

Good Question. I can't think of something specific. Maybe if the crank was cracked and could not be repaired and the cost of replacement was too much, or something like that.

My logic went like something like this - I had several options: 1) rebuild for a bit over $2K; 2) Buy a used engine (there is one up for sale nearby for $2500 that the owner has rebuilt); 3) Buy a used block from a rebuilder for $4K with warranty; 5) Buy a new engine (eg Beta for about $8K) plus the cost of modifying the engine beds etc. I visited the Beta dealer in Sausalito, CA while I was there and they seemed very helpful and knowledgeable about repowering and were happy to crate and ship a motor to me.

Rebuilding or a new engine became my best choices as only those two meant I knew exactly what I was working with when done, plus, by rebuilding I know the engine inside and out.

The engine did not come with the head. I would have no idea where to look for a replacement head, how did you go about that?

Ebay.

I get that you removed the engine but did you then disassemble the whole block, removing, cylinders, crank shaft etc? and just give your machinist a box of parts?

Thats exactly what I did

I'm assuming you found some kind of shop manual for the engine to know all the clearances to give to the machisist, is that right?

Yes, the 54xx series of engine service manual has all the dimensions needed, it's readily available as a PDF from many sources on the internet. I gave Carl at Jensens a hard copy and emailed him one too.

Did you source part locally, or use an internet source, if so who.

Sunset Kubota locally, Sean its the parts guy. All he needs is the Kubota block type and serial number, both stamped on the block.

Also http://www.lashleyparts.com/ online. Their website is slow, but works. I am sure there are many good sources online.

If you had to do it over would you do anything different?

I would not spend the time that I did messing around trying to get the engine to run WITHOUT tearing it down first. I would just get into the total rebuild mode right away.

How long ago was this project?


Pulled motor in June, re-installed in September. I was not in a big hurry, July and August is not my favorite time to sail in the Great Salt Lake, too hot and buggy, not much wind most of the time.

Who assembled everything? If you did how did you know or learn how to do it?

I did. I am not a mechanic, but learned to fix cars as a teen when my uncles were into car racing and needed pit crew.

Did you start the engine the first time. What was that process like.?

I had made a wooden dolly for the motor, which was attached to it with lag screws. I hooked up a battery to starter and glowplugs. Used a 5 gal diesel jug as a fuel tank and put the water pump intake into a bucket that I kept topped up with a garden hose. I ran the engine for maybe 2-3 hours before reinstallation. I have a short video of it running like this. If I can figure out how to post it here I will.

Thanks for the questions. I'll be happy to try and help anyone who is working on one of these engines. I really don't know much about any other diesels as this is the only one I have ever worked on except for simple stuff.

Eric
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  #4  
Old 11-25-2013
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Re: Eric's 5416 Rebuild

Eric you are being a great sport to put up with all of my questions.

Thanks

It you post your video to youtube.com then you can just post a link.

What surprises me is that your machinist was willing to tackle this as he is not a diesel guy.
But I suppose that you were assuming the risk, all he needed to do was the specific machine operation you contracted him to do.
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Old 11-25-2013
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Re: Eric's 5416 Rebuild

David,

you said:But I suppose that you were assuming the risk, all he needed to do was the specific machine operation you contracted him to do

Actually, it was slightly different from that. I gave him all the components and asked him to clean and measure them and tell me what needed replacing or machining.

Basically I asked him to go through the engine components and tell me what, if it were his engine, he would do to get it back to as near new as reasonably possible.

It is true that I assumed most of the risk though, as I was the one doing the re-assembly.

Eric
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Old 11-25-2013
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Re: Eric's 5416 Rebuild

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericirvine View Post
Actually, it was slightly different from that. I gave him all the components and asked him to clean and measure them and tell me what needed replacing or machining.
It is true that I assumed most of the risk though, as I was the one doing the re-assembly.

Eric
An important point.

I'm not an engine expert but their must have been some critical, non-obvious issues involved with the re-assembly.

Getting the valves, cams, belts etc all lined up to make the timing right for example.
Valve clearance for example.
Did you have a book you were going by?
How did you know you were assembling it correctly?

I just find it fascinating that you were able to do this successfully without instruction or doing it before.

I was under the impression that the diesel while fundamentally simple needed expert workers to even replace parts much less do a full rebuild.

I'm just trying to figure out how you were able to get enough knowledge to not assemble something wrong that would explode the engine.

Did you have any setbacks?
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Last edited by davidpm; 11-25-2013 at 09:09 PM.
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Old 11-25-2013
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Re: Eric's 5416 Rebuild

David.

Sorry, I did not mention having a book, I didn't mean to imply I did not use one.

The Service manual that I mentioned giving to the machine shop did contain the kind of information I needed for re-assembly, such as torque settings, camshaft/crankshaft timing, valve clearance adjustment and fuel injection timing. Also the 5416 Owners Manual, which can also be downloaded, covers some of this too.

The critical bits of the re-assembly to get right were:

1) The alignments of the timing marks on the crankshaft, idler gear, fuel injection camshaft and valve drive camshaft. Really, it was not that hard as you basically have to install all the above so the little dimples line up with each other. It took me a while to convince myself that after getting the alignment right that if I turned the crankshaft that eventually the marks would come back into alignment again after so many revolutions - but they did.

2) Checking or adjusting the fuel injection timing. The owners manual explains how to do this. Basically, you get the fuel level to the top of the outlets of the injection pump then slowly turn the crankshaft till you see the first sign of movement in the surface of the fuel (as the injection pump plunger begins to force the fuel out). At that point you stop turning the crank and check the fuel timing marks on the flywheel against the reference bark on the block. Adjustments on this engine are made by inserting or removing shims on the injection pump mounting flange. I found I had to do this check several times till I was sure I was getting it right.

Both these procedures, as well as the others you mentioned are covered in either or both the manuals I mentioned above.

Eric
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Old 11-26-2013
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Re: Eric's 5416 Rebuild

Thanks for those details.
Your project inspired me to find and watch this set of videos on youtube.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lbH...008754DAACB799

One choice I have a question about.
Why did you give the cleaning the parts job to the mechanic?
At first thought one would think that would be something you could have done.

In the video above the guy made a big effort to get every part back to the same cylinder it came from.

Since you replaced pistons, rings and sleeves that would make that process a lot easier.

Which makes we wonder. Was their any parts that had to be assembled in a specific way because the engine was a rebuild vs the way it was assembled as a new engine?

I'm thinking your rebuild was a lot more thorough.

Which brings up a question about rebuilds in general.
If you buy an engine that someone has rebuilt it seems as thorough exactly what they did would make a big difference. IOW a rebuild could be thourgh like yours, pretty though like the video above or someone could just change seals and gaskets, lap the valves and call it a rebuild.
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Last edited by davidpm; 11-26-2013 at 08:41 AM.
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Old 11-26-2013
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Re: Eric's 5416 Rebuild

David,

you asked: One choice I have a question about.
Why did you give the cleaning the parts job to the mechanic?
At first thought one would think that would be something you could have done.


Machine shops usually get engines to work on that are often leaking oil and covered in road dirt. They have heavy duty cleaning equipment and powerful chemicals , plus media-blasting tools for removing rust, paint etc. I don't have access to this kind of stuff at home. My engine had internal rust and corrosion debris because of the salt water getting into the crankcase and I wanted it cleaned out as best as possible.

You also asked: If you buy an engine that someone has rebuilt it seems as thorough exactly what they did would make a big difference. IOW a rebuild could be thourgh like yours, pretty though like the video above or someone could just change seals and gaskets, lap the valves and call it a rebuild.

You got that right.Usually reputable rebuilding companies will have a warranty period, but private individuals may not. I would want to see receipts for the work that was claimed to be done. Even then there are unknowns.

I decided that the only way to be sure of the work done on the engine was to do it myself in conjunction with a good machine shop. So far I am very happy with the outcome after 20+ hours on the rebuilt motor.

To your other comments/observations:

If I were putting the original pistons, rods or valves back in I would be careful to put them back into the locations they came from. With new components, that's not so necessary.

I can't think of anything that would be put back differently because of the rebuild.

Eric
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Old 11-26-2013
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Re: Eric's 5416 Rebuild

Eric,
I have a 5416 that was torn apart and the back end was redone. Thanks for answering all of David's questions, I'm following this because it may be necessary on my engine at some point in the not too distant future, too.
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