Not so simple Black Smoke / overloading - SailNet Community
 6Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 69 Old 10-18-2015 Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Coral Bay and Davao
Posts: 18
Thanks: 4
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
 
Not so simple Black Smoke / overloading

Hi all,

I have been reading these posts and have helped me a lot, unfortunately I have a problem which I have not been able to find a solution to so I am putting it out to the wider community in the hope for some assistance.

We are currently docked in Philippines.

Engine is 50 hp Perkins 4108. Was overhauled by local mechanic last year (2014) bench test was all good. Sent injection pump for overhaul/service and once returned engine ran terribly- much black smoke and thick black exhaust ‘gunge’.
Returned with new pump from Australia this year and also had spare pump serviced and calibrated by local Bosch injection service technicians. We installed the newly reconditioned pump and engine ran very well in neutral. We launched the boat approx 1 week ago and since then have been able to load test which is where the problems started. The Vessel was out of the water for almost 18 months undergoing major refit.

Symptoms are....

In neutral (no load) engine will move through rev range up to approx 3200 rpm as expected ~ clear exhaust with only a bit of black when very close to WOT (upwards of approx 2800rpm)

Once gear is engaged (fwd or reverse) engine will operate normally at idle speed (approx 6-700 rpm) then accelerate typically (clear exhaust and prop/boat speed) up until approx 1100 rpm after which point much black smoke is noticeable and black ‘gunge’ is in the exhaust and floating on the water (appears to me be improperly combusted diesel).
There is still throttle left but as you accelerate further there is no increase in prop speed/boat speed or rpm increase, just more black smoke/’gunge’.

I have run tests tied to the dock and out on sea trial with no change to the symptoms.

I have checked throttle morse (removed and accelerated manually)

I have checked the stop morse (removed to ensure it was all the way in the open position)

I have removed the air filter (engine is naturally aspirated i.e. no turbo)

I have removed and inspected exhaust manifold, elbow and water trap/muffler box. All were completely clean

I have checked and changed all fuel filters.

I have inspected all fuel lines and replaced any suspect.

I have run with fuel line assisted by electric pump to aid if lift pump was having difficulties. (also with a temporary ‘day-tank’ set up higher than the engine.

I have removed and replaced all injectors

Injection pump has been calibrated and I have run the engine with two different pumps with no change in symptoms

I originally set the pump up with the timing lines lined up and have adjusted (advanced and retarded) timing again with no change to symptoms.

I have checked valve clearance and found No.3 cylender to be out by 0.1mm[ should be at 0.3mm but was found to be at 0.4mm (I have not had a chance to tune and check as was beaten by the light)] but will do so in the morning. Could be causing this issue?

Gear box is Borg Warner velvet drive; it was not serviced during the overhaul. Is there anything you know of with these that would cause an overloading problem like this? It goes into fwd and reverse with no problem.

Shaft was aligned and feels fine on rotation (no vibration or stiffness), stern gland is not overheating, and shaft spins freely by hand when in neutral.
Oil level in gear box is set to the line and looks in good condition.

The propeller is the same as before the overhaul.

As we have just gone back in the water all the bottom and prop is clean

I am genuinelly running out of ideas, hope someone out there may be able to shed some light....

Cheers already

Steve
stepwheel101 is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 69 Old 10-18-2015
HANUMAN
 
RobGallagher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Noank, Connecticut, USA
Posts: 2,474
Thanks: 23
Thanked 71 Times in 70 Posts
Rep Power: 16
 
Re: Not so simple Black Smoke / overloading

You will get much better ideas than this, but, the first thing I might do is put on a mask and double check that the prop is in order and spinning freely in neutral. I know you just launched but a wrap of line or netting or maybe something happened during launch (were you present when the boat went back in the water?). It's a long shot, but it doesn't involve taking anything else apart.

No chance of an exhaust hose collapsing or bending?

HANUMAN
'88 C&C 30 MKII
NOANK, CT
RobGallagher is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #3 of 69 Old 10-18-2015
Senior Member
 
RichH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 4,336
Thanks: 41
Thanked 235 Times in 222 Posts
Rep Power: 18
   
Re: Not so simple Black Smoke / overloading

Quote:
Originally Posted by stepwheel101 View Post
In neutral (no load) engine will move through rev range up to approx 3200 rpm as expected ~ clear exhaust with only a bit of black when very close to WOT (upwards of approx 2800rpm)

Once gear is engaged (fwd or reverse) engine will operate normally at idle speed (approx 6-700 rpm) then accelerate typically (clear exhaust and prop/boat speed) up until approx 1100 rpm after which point much black smoke is noticeable and black ‘gunge’ is in the exhaust and floating on the water (appears to me be improperly combusted diesel).
There is still throttle left but as you accelerate further there is no increase in prop speed/boat speed or rpm increase, just more black smoke/’gunge’.

>>>>>>> I have checked valve clearance and found No.3 cylender to be out by 0.1mm[ should be at 0.3mm but was found to be at 0.4mm (I have not had a chance to tune and check as was beaten by the light)] but will do so in the morning. Could be causing this issue?
Assuming you correctly reset the fuel timing of the injector pump ....... IF not, FIRST recheck/reset FUEL INJECTOR TIMING. Then if not corrected:

A. Do compression test or pressurized air-leak-down test looking for partly blown head gasket (possibly between cylinders).
.... OR a 'floating' / hanging-up valve stem that isnt fully withdrawing from the combustion chamber thus the valve not fully closing and not allowing a cylinder to develop full compression due to valve leakage.
Could be as simple as rust on a valve stem that is 'slowing' the spring return action of the valve - causing the 'float' at high rpm under load.

B. Remove the injectors, looking for sooted injector tip(s), the one with the 'blackest' tip will indicate which cylinder is not reaching full compression. If so, then measure the 'stroke' dimension (to closest 1/1000th of inch, etc.) of the valve travel distance for that cylinder. If rusted valve stem, sometimes soaking the valve stem seal(s) with a bit of 'penetration oil' will help to re-polish a stem that is not working (hanging-up) correctly. Also look for camshaft lobe that has abnormal wear.

C. If there is a high probability of head gasket leak and the exhaust gas is leaking into the fresh water cooling circuit ... there are dyes that can be put into the fresh water and which will 'fluoresce' when 'black light' is shown into the water and the water has a high amount of carbon monoxide from a head gasket leak.

D. If the engine has ever had water in a cylinder - Another possibility is a hanging up piston ring with the possibility that the ring groove is rusted or filled with soot and the ring is not fully following/expanding .... in a worn cylinder bore that has developed a 'taper'. A rusted piston groove would be an indication of water leak into the combustion chamber, either from a blown head gasket OR an exhaust manifold that has developed a pin-hole leak from the 'water side' to the 'gas side' (water enters the cylinder after the engine is shut down ..... in such cases of water leak, the removed injector tip will be the 'easiest cleanest' but sooted and the soot 'easily' wipes off, continuously cleaned by the steam generated but sooted due to the low compression in that combustion chamber due to 'sticking' piston ring.
Remedy for crudded up piston ring groove .... remove all injectors, inject penetrating oil into suspected cylinder, let soak for several days, then spin engine by starter, let soak a few more days ..... and repeat a few times followed by running engine slowly from low rpm/no load and
'slowly' from previous to high rpm/full load .... over several hours - to repolish piston ring groove, ........ then look for source of water leak into the combustion chamber that probably caused this - head gasket or leaking exhaust manifold, etc.

good luck, hope this helps.

added/edit ... an engine with a stuck/sticking piston ring will usually have a lot of 'blow by', as noted by a lot of 'gas' coming out the 'block breather' or removed lube oil cap.
seabeau likes this.

Last edited by RichH; 10-18-2015 at 01:02 PM.
RichH is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
 
post #4 of 69 Old 10-18-2015
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: South of Albuquerque
Posts: 548
Thanks: 14
Thanked 25 Times in 23 Posts
Rep Power: 5
 
Re: Not so simple Black Smoke / overloading

Rich seems to know a lot more about diesels than I do. Black smoke oil burning. Smoke while running under load compression. I will have to reed that post again and remember
all those other possibilities. Woah neat.

Zen is a matter of recognizing reality.
desert rat is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #5 of 69 Old 10-18-2015
Just another Moderator
 
Faster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: New Westminster, BC
Posts: 18,779
Thanks: 141
Thanked 499 Times in 473 Posts
Rep Power: 10
     
Re: Not so simple Black Smoke / overloading

When the black smoke starts is there a new 'ticking' noise too? That would point more definitively to a poorly atomizing injector (breaking over at too low a pressure). This has been known to occur even with newly reconditioned injectors from time to time. It also generally causes a drop in rpm.

In my experience oil burns blue, poor diesel burn is black, and antifreeze/coolant burns white as a general diagnostic indicator..

I think I'd be looking into Rich H's first point first.. the actual timing of the injection pump - and of the whole valve train too.

Ron

1984 Fast/Nicholson 345 "FastForward"

".. there is much you could do at sea with common sense.. and very little you could do without it.."
Capt G E Ericson (from "The Cruel Sea" by Nicholas Monsarrat)
Faster is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #6 of 69 Old 10-18-2015 Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Coral Bay and Davao
Posts: 18
Thanks: 4
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
 
Re: Not so simple Black Smoke / overloading

Hey all,

Thank you for your responces, really appreciated.

Rich, I am going to recheck the inj pump timing. I was in the shop when the technicians were calibrating and I know that
1. they do not have a timing tool and
2. they did not hook it up to an atomiser tester as per manual instructions for re-timing the pump without tool. lets hope that is the case.

Also the engine has JUST been completely overhauled top and bottom I can see no signs of corrosion on rocker gear, I would hope that corrosion is no the issue.
I suppose a head gasket could be damaged before or during installation?
I have had the same symptoms with 2 different sets of squirts (injectors)
The engine was stored dry, since the rebuild I think highly unikely that water got in, but then straner things have happened...

With the floating valve stem... I have read in the overhaul manual that the engines are not manuactured with a valve seat, just machined correctly, over time the valve seats wear and if overhauling if valve clearence is beyond tollerance then valve seats will need to be installed. If these were needed and the mechanic has not installed them could this be related to my symptoms?

Thanks again for taking your time... I will let you know how re inspection of pump timing goes


~ Steve
stepwheel101 is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #7 of 69 Old 10-18-2015
Senior Member
 
RichH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 4,336
Thanks: 41
Thanked 235 Times in 222 Posts
Rep Power: 18
   
Re: Not so simple Black Smoke / overloading

I'm not specifically familiar with the 4-108 but for most other diesel engines of this type, the fuel timing is set by placing or removing appropriate shims installed between the body of the injector pump and its mating opening in the engine block, so that when an indicator scribed 'mark' on the crankshaft nose (or pulley mounted to the crankshaft nose) lines up typically with an embossed 'mark' on the block, so that the pump opens and the #1 injector correspondingly opens and pumps oil. Retarding or advancing the injector timing is accomplished by changing the amount of shims between the injector pump and the mating surface on the engine block.
So the easiest way to do this, is to ask the mechanic who did the rebuild if he actually set the timing correctly when this engine was reassembled after its rebuild.
Most shop (maintenance and rebuild) manuals have this is info on how to check and how to adjust, etc.

;-)
RichH is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #8 of 69 Old 10-18-2015
Closet Powerboater
 
MedSailor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Anacortes PNW
Posts: 3,925
Thanks: 298
Thanked 125 Times in 113 Posts
Rep Power: 10
 
Re: Not so simple Black Smoke / overloading

What is the quality of the diesel fuel? Any chance you got diesel mixed with bunker fuel? (It has happened)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

I have a sauna on my boat, therefore I win.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
MedSailor is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #9 of 69 Old 10-19-2015
Sailor
 
Gladrags1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Rock Creek, Maryland
Posts: 793
Thanks: 11
Thanked 25 Times in 25 Posts
Rep Power: 14
 
You have not responded to the question of prop being fouled. A fouled prop could cause these symptoms as well.

Tod
Gladrags1 is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #10 of 69 Old 10-19-2015
Closet Powerboater
 
MedSailor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Anacortes PNW
Posts: 3,925
Thanks: 298
Thanked 125 Times in 113 Posts
Rep Power: 10
 
Re: Not so simple Black Smoke / overloading

Quote:
Originally Posted by stepwheel101 View Post
As we have just gone back in the water all the bottom and prop is clean
Steve
Absolutely could cause those symptoms, but it looks like that's not our (black) smoking gun.

I have a sauna on my boat, therefore I win.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
MedSailor is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
Reply

Tags
black smoke , diesel , gearbox , overhaul , overload

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Yanmar 2gm black smoke johnskolfield Introduce Yourself 4 11-18-2012 07:16 PM
Yanmar baffling black smoke Tspringer Diesel 27 08-03-2012 09:44 AM
Yanmar - black smoke in exhaust JSL3 Diesel 18 07-20-2009 11:23 AM
black sooth and smoke joefar Gear & Maintenance 3 09-02-2008 11:22 AM
Black smoke and black water bruceyp Gear & Maintenance 25 08-04-2008 12:00 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome