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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance > Engines > Diesel
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Diesel This is a forum dedicated to diesel engines and their applicable accessories.


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  #21  
Old 09-30-2012
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Problem solved!

Sorry for the long post, but I hope to help the next person, and to dispel some of the air of "mystery" about diesels, and in particular the M25. Because I have motored more this year than last, I noticed another "issue" with the engine, which, while not related, led me to solve the problem. Please realize that this is only my second season with the boat, and the second year with a diesel...

I bought this boat in the fall of 2010 despite the fact that it had the old-style alternator mounting bracket, and the unpainted aluminum cover led me to surmise that the cover had been cracked by the old bracket. One of the first things that I did was to replace the alternator mounting bracket, and the alternator (upped from 55A to 90A). Here is a pic of the engine when I first saw the boat in June of 2010;

There are at least 7 things wrong in this picture.... Can you find them all?

This year I noticed that there seemed to be a lot of oil leaking out and covering the front of the engine. Last year I replaced the crankshaft oil seal (which was toast), and I assumed that I had done it correctly, and therefore that wasn't the source. Also, the oil seemed to be running down from near the speed control plate on the top of the M25 engine. I looked carefully, and could see no gasket. When I looked in my parts diagram (at home) of the Kubota DH850 Engine, I could see that there should have been a gasket.

Here is a pic of the engine taken much earlier this year, after I replaced the motor mounts;


And this is where I believed the oil was comming from;


Simple, I thought... just buy and install part number 130 in the below illustration.

Here is the CORRECT diagram;

Note that I did not have this on the boat at the time.

A few days later, armed with the new gasket, I tried to install it. Off comes the speed control plate, and I notice that there is a single spring connected to the speed control lever. The other end of this spring is lost somewhere in the bowels of the fuel injection pump / governor, and I know enough about mucking with governors, to know that I don't want to go there. So I try to slip the gasket over the entire assembly. No joy. The gasket will not slip over without tearing, and I am trying to stop a leak, not start one.

I therefore VERY carefully disconnected the spring, and kept it under slight tension with a loop of wire, and started to install the gasket over the loop of wire. The loop of wire, however, allowed the spring to twist slightly, and the spring disconnected from whatever the other end was hooked on, and it popped out of the engine. I marked this unexpected turn of events with several special words, reserved for those times when a 15 minute job, suddenly turns out to be a job that may never end, unless you to call for paid help to rescue you.

I then notice ANOTHER spring is lodged down there. Funny, I didn't remember seeing that spring, or know from where it came. so I look in ALL the Universal manuals at my disposal. I can't find it, and the guts of the governor do not look like what I am seeing in any of the illustrations that I have in the service or workshop manuals. Here is one example;

My thoughts at the time; "I am so screwed..."

Well, there is no turning back now, so I plunged ahead. My first thought was to remove the injector pump itself. To get at it, the air cleaner, the intake manifold, and the injector lines have to come off, so off they come. About an hour later, I have the nuts and bolts removed, but this thing won't budge with out breaking something. I try another tack. I have no idea whet lies behind the engine stop lever, but it's got to be easier than the Injector pump. I am trying to be careful here, and I only want one project going at a time. So, I wipe clean all the stuff that I have just removed with a paper towel, and put it back together. I then remove the throttle linkage mounting plate so that I can access all the bolts that hold the stop lever plate in place. Off come the bolts, and after a tap, off comes the stop lever. Here is what I saw;


You can see the small spring exiting off to the right, yet attached to the slot on the fork in the pic above. Once again, no gasket...

I noticed that the spring in my hand was far larger than the spring that was sitting, disconnected, in the governor, and reasoned that the larger spring must go over the smaller spring. That is, the smaller spring must be contained within the larger. I also noticed that the end of the spring was bent so that it could slide back and forth about the length of the slot that you see pictured above. If this was true, they must attach to the same mounting points. I reasoned that the smaller spring must be the primary throttle advance, and the larger, would work in conjunction with the smaller as the secondary (heavy load) throttle advance.

Hmmm... and I am having trouble reaching full RPMs.... These two symptoms could be related - yes?

I connected one end of the large and the small spring to the slot seen in the picture above, and then connected BOTH springs to the throttle control lever, and buttoned everything back together... (I still need to buy and install a gasket for the engine stop lever plate.) I bled the fuel system, crossed my fingers, held the glow plug button in, and then hit the starter.

She started right up, and was now idling at about 1400 RPM. After letting it warm up for a few minutes I increased the throttle, and she revved to over 3500 RPM! I realized that the idle and high speed throttle stops must have been adjusted without the second spring attached, and therefore needed readjusting. I also figured out that the mysterious screw that is buried under a cap, and two lock nuts must be the governor adjustment.

After about 15 minutes of tweaking, I was able to set the idle at 1000, WOT at 3000 RPM, and under load (tied to the dock, in reverse - and I am very confident in my lines and cleats) she will hit 2600 RPM in reverse with a dirty prop. I also know HOW to adjust the governor, should I need to do so. (that governor adjustment is not labelled ANYWHERE that I could find)
chucklesR and INMA like this.
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  #22  
Old 09-30-2012
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Re: Universal M25 losing power

I don't see anything regarding bleeding the injector, distributor,pump. That would definitely cause a loss in high rpm because it is connected to the governor.there is a bleeder valve on the side of the injector Pump a 5/16 wrench should fit. Loosen this fitting and pump the hand lever on your fuel pump until absolutely no air comes out of the bleeder.only diesel fuel tighten the Bleeder This is not mentioned in your video...... hopefully this is the problem. air can trapped at this point when you change fuel filters or run out of fuel.
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  #23  
Old 10-01-2012
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Re: Universal M25 losing power

idle RPM should be 550 to 600 apparently you posted this right before I posted to you...lol
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Old 10-01-2012
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Re: Universal M25 losing power

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt. Gary Randall View Post
I don't see anything regarding bleeding the injector, distributor,pump. That would definitely cause a loss in high rpm because it is connected to the governor.there is a bleeder valve on the side of the injector Pump a 5/16 wrench should fit. Loosen this fitting and pump the hand lever on your fuel pump until absolutely no air comes out of the bleeder.only diesel fuel tighten the Bleeder This is not mentioned in your video...... hopefully this is the problem. air can trapped at this point when you change fuel filters or run out of fuel.
Bleeding the fuel on this is easier than that; Turn the knob on the side of the injector pump, and turn the key to the "on" position. The electric fuel pump will push fuel through the system and "click" rapidly. Let it run (click) for a minute, then turn the knob to close the valve. The system is now bled.
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  #25  
Old 10-01-2012
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Re: Universal M25 losing power

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt. Gary Randall View Post
idle RPM should be 550 to 600 apparently you posted this right before I posted to you...lol
Can you point to a reference? All that I could find indicated that the idle speed for an M25-XP should be 1000...
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  #26  
Old 10-01-2012
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Re: Universal M25 losing power

Great writeup in Post #21.

Manual's are manuals, but real life is almost always different and the cause of much frustration.
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Old 10-01-2012
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Re: Problem solved!

Quote:
Originally Posted by eherlihy View Post
There are at least 7 things wrong in this picture.... Can you find them all?
Three that jump out are the leaking water pump gasket and rear seal, that hose crossing the alternator belt, and the ground attached to the alternator adjustment bracket bolt.

Your engine looks much better - nice job with the mounting brackets, re-routing of the hose that crossed the alternator belt, and new alternator tensioning bracket.

Tell us more...
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Old 10-01-2012
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Re: Universal M25 losing power

Quote:
Originally Posted by eherlihy View Post

There are at least 7 things wrong in this picture.... Can you find them all?
I take a stab;

*Antifreeze tank "appears" mounted too low
*Fluid not filled to correct level
*Leaking RWP face plate gasket
*Leaking water seal on RWP
*Alternator adjustment arm on backwards
*Crimp fitting on non-factory temp T not heat shrunk
*Zip tie holding coolant hose is plastic (could melt)
*Poor routing of coolant hose around alternator
*Hose clamp too long
*Ground wire under alt adjustment not ideal location
*Aftermarket oil filter (larger OD) impinging on factory alternator bracket
*Alternator bracket had not been updated despite the timing gear case obviously having been replaced.
* Positive 12V wires not properly secured appears to be rubbing on the manifold
*Non-factory tee added to t-stat housing which can lead to improper flow around temp sender/alarm. Should be removed and plumbed correctly.
*Fuel hose on left should be better secured so as not to chafe on RWP
*White 12V wires on left appear to be chafing on fuel bleeder screw & air filter
*FWP, based on corrosion, appears to leak or has leaked
*PCV hose impinged and possibly pinched closed by alternator bracket
*Plastic zip ties in engine spaces are ABYC non-preferred.
*90 degree elbow on RWP can be a debris catcher and can increase head pressure
*Fuel hoses should be double clamped (does not look it but hard to tell)


Sorry I got more than 7 though some are hard to tell from the angle....
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Last edited by Maine Sail; 10-01-2012 at 08:39 AM.
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  #29  
Old 10-01-2012
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Re: Universal M25 losing power

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
I take a stab;

*Antifreeze tank "appears" mounted too low [It was - now corrected]
*Fluid not filled to correct level
*Leaking RWP face plate gasket [It was - the pump has since been rebuilt, and I have a complete spare]
*Leaking water seal on RWP [Yep - that's #1]
*Alternator adjustment arm on backwards [The entire alternator mount was junk - that's #2]
*Crimp fitting on non-factory temp T not heat shrunk
*Zip tie holding coolant hose is plastic (could melt) [or chafe through - that's #3]
*Poor routing of coolant hose around alternator [Yup - also #3]
*Hose clamp too long
*Ground wire under alt adjustment not ideal location
*Aftermarket oil filter (larger OD) impinging on factory alternator bracket
*Alternator bracket had not been updated despite the timing gear case obviously having been replaced. [also #3]
* Positive 12V wires not properly secured appears to be rubbing on the manifold [That's #4]
*Non-factory tee added to t-stat housing which can lead to improper flow around temp sender/alarm. Should be removed and plumbed correctly. [That's #5]
*Fuel hose on left should be better secured so as not to chafe on RWP
*White 12V wires on left appear to be chafing on fuel bleeder screw & air filter
*FWP, based on corrosion, appears to leak or has leaked [That's #6]
*PCV hose impinged and possibly pinched closed by alternator bracket
*Plastic zip ties in engine spaces are ABYC non-preferred.
*90 degree elbow on RWP can be a debris catcher and can increase head pressure [That's #7]
*Fuel hoses should be double clamped (does not look it but hard to tell)


Sorry I got more than 7 though some are hard to tell from the angle....


You win the prize!


Here is what the SAMS / AMS (& ABYC) Certified Surveyor said about the overall condition of the motor;
Quote:
Make: Universal Location: Under Cockpit
Model: M 25 Ser.No.: [redacted]
No.Cyl.: 3 H.P.: 25 R.P.M.:
Year: 1987 Hrs.: 171 ? Overhauled:
Fuel System: Hose, 12 VT Fuel Pump, Racor Filter Separator
Cooling System: Fresh Water
Sea Strainer: External and Bronze Internal
Exhaust System: Raw Water Through Vetus Muffler and Exhaust Hose
Electrical System: Alternator Charges Both Batteries.
Ventilation: Natural, Good.
Reduction Gear: Hurth
Engine Beds: F.R.P.
Drip Pan: F.R.P.
Instruments and Monitoring: Universal
Controls: Edson Cables
...
Engine Started and Ran Very Well
...
With the exception of the above I find this vessel to be in Good Structural, Mechanical and Cosmetic Condition. If vessel is provided with the proper care and maintenance and the above recommendations are met it should provide many more years of service.
And that was the SECOND surveyor that I hired!
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Last edited by eherlihy; 10-01-2012 at 10:11 AM.
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  #30  
Old 10-01-2012
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Re: Problem solved!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
Three that jump out are the leaking water pump gasket and rear seal, that hose crossing the alternator belt, and the ground attached to the alternator adjustment bracket bolt.

Your engine looks much better - nice job with the mounting brackets, re-routing of the hose that crossed the alternator belt, and new alternator tensioning bracket.

Tell us more...
Very good - I'll give you a passing grade!

Thanks! She is slowly getting there.... and so am I

The screaming obvious thing to me was the alternator mounting bracket. This should have been called out on the survey... The leaking FWP was also missed on the survey... I don't hold much stock in surveyors opinions
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