Rusty water on startup, - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance > Engines > Diesel
 Not a Member? 
  #1  
Old 11-07-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: So.Md
Posts: 233
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 5
AirborneSF is on a distinguished road
Unhappy Rusty water on startup,

Hi all, need some guidance here, as stated when first started rusty water comes out of exhaust, which means inside of eng is getting rusty. What can I do about it? Should I cut off the 'fresh water intake', brfore shutdown, and run it dry? There is no way to 'run' anything in the block, unless I put it in for the winter. Input? Thanks, Dave.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #2  
Old 11-07-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 9,501
Thanks: 10
Thanked 159 Times in 145 Posts
Rep Power: 6
Minnewaska will become famous soon enough Minnewaska will become famous soon enough
Re: Rusty water on startup,

How do you know it's rust and not decayed seawater or even exhaust soot.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #3  
Old 11-07-2012
Stu Jackson's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 812
Thanks: 0
Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts
Rep Power: 14
Stu Jackson is on a distinguished road
Re: Rusty water on startup,

Dave, what engine do you have? RW or FW cooled? That might help us to help you.
__________________
Stu Jackson, C34, 1986, M25 engine, Rocna 10 (22#)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #4  
Old 11-07-2012
RichH's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,968
Thanks: 10
Thanked 89 Times in 81 Posts
Rep Power: 15
RichH will become famous soon enough
Re: Rusty water on startup,

Rust on startup from any marine engine is the result of 'not using the engine enough' or that engine T'stat is not allowing the engine, when running, to get as 'hot as possible'.

Cast iron of the internal engine (and cast iron components of the heat exchanger, if the engine has one) rusts in two forms of Iron oxide, depending on the temperature at which the engine is run.
1. Ferrous rust is black rust or blue black rust that forms when the cooling water is at near 180 degrees F and the engine is heat soaked for relatively LONG periods of time when running. The longer the run time and the hotter the water, the deeper this protective form of rust is formed.
2. Ferric or 'red' rust is destructive and is promoted in marine engines as follows:
A. using a thermostat that opens at below 150 degrees
B. Letting the engine sit for long periods. The protective ferrous black rust slowly coverts to ferric red rust .... if you need to store your boat for long periods, you should fill the raw water cooling circuits with antifreeze with 'anti-rust' compounds
C. draining the raw water circuit and engine (air drying) without adding 'rust inhibitors'- severe red rust formation.

Its a common problem with cast iron and the reason that naval vessels with cast iron cooling water components are kept running (to keep the ferrous rust from converting back to ferric rust).
In marine engines it usually takes 25-30+ years for such internal rusting to become 'significant', the engines are usually built with sufficient 'corrosion allowance' so that the inevitable rusting will take a long time to become a serious issue.
However, one item that is extremely sensitive and 'most subjective' to ferric rusting is the engine's (cast iron) exhaust manifold ... doesn't have as much 'extra beef' of corrosion allowance (wall thickness) because of its 'cooling job'. Because of the thin wall construction and the way that thin wall cast iron 'stratifies' (like an onion) when it cools in its mold when made, when ferric (red) rust begins in earnest it starts to 'push' the casting stratifications apart and large visible 'platelets' of 'slabs' or large particles of rust begin to form .... and once you see or notice such 'particles' forming, then the exhaust manifold becomes very prone to leak between the 'gas side' and the 'water side' and if not monitored carefully - if such a pin-hole develops, the water from the cooling side can easily 'back drain' into a cylinder. So, once an exhaust manifold starts to develop red 'slab rust' then normal maintenance should be to remove it and periodically 'pressure test' the integrity of the internal passages to validate that the manifold has NOT developed 'pin holes'.

Rusting of cast iron marine engines is inevitable, the design normally includes many years of 'rusting' by adequate 'corrosion allowance' .... the longer and hotter you run the engine the least amount of rusting will occur. Marine engines usually never 'wear out', they rot away from the inside'. Once you denote 'particles' of rust coming out the exhaust, begin to consider to 'evaluate', starting with the most easily 'rot-able' exhaust manifold as that usually indicates rusting thats a bit more than 'normal' and can be the first signs of 'slab rust' which usually starts in the ex. manifold first.

Run the engine long and hard to lessen 'rusting'; when long term (weeks, etc.) inactivity is expected ... fill the raw water side with anti-freeze with rust inhibiters. Never drain a marine engine and store it 'dry'.

Last edited by RichH; 11-07-2012 at 07:50 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #5  
Old 11-07-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: So.Md
Posts: 233
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 5
AirborneSF is on a distinguished road
Re: Rusty water on startup,

S-J, it's cooled by the river, F-W. R-H, makes sense, maybe I need to run it more, we didn't get out much this year, and she has been sitting alot. "Thank you all" I feel better, just need to go 'motoring' I guess.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #6  
Old 11-07-2012
casey1999's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: HI
Posts: 3,030
Thanks: 11
Thanked 32 Times in 31 Posts
Rep Power: 5
casey1999 is on a distinguished road
Re: Rusty water on startup,

On my Yanmar 3GMD (direct sea water cooled) after each use I flush with fresh water and leave filled with fresh water. Is this a good idea or would it be better to leave filled with salt water?

Would flushing and filling with "Salt A Way" be a good idea?
Regards
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #7  
Old 11-08-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: So.Md
Posts: 233
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 5
AirborneSF is on a distinguished road
Re: Rusty water on startup,

Good question. I was thinking maybe make it a closed circuit, and add some auto block cleaner, but then the cost thing factors in. More start-ups seems like the answer for now.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #8  
Old 11-08-2012
casey1999's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: HI
Posts: 3,030
Thanks: 11
Thanked 32 Times in 31 Posts
Rep Power: 5
casey1999 is on a distinguished road
Re: Rusty water on startup,

Quote:
Originally Posted by AirborneSF View Post
Good question. I was thinking maybe make it a closed circuit, and add some auto block cleaner, but then the cost thing factors in. More start-ups seems like the answer for now.
To flush with fresh water I added a tee fitting (with shut off valve) at the seacock inlet. To flush I shut the seacock and open the vave at the tee. I have a long hose attached to the tee that I attach to a bucket in the cockpit. The bucket has a hose fitting in its bottom. Fill the bucket with fresh water and flush engine for 5 minutes. By drawing water from the bucket, I will not over pressurize the engine's cooling system (as may happen by attaching fresh water dock hose directly into engine).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #9  
Old 11-08-2012
jameswilson29's Avatar
Senior Smart Aleck
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Posts: 2,152
Thanks: 34
Thanked 70 Times in 65 Posts
Rep Power: 6
jameswilson29 is on a distinguished road
Re: Rusty water on startup,

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichH View Post
... fill the raw water side with anti-freeze with rust inhibiters...
So we should be using the green stuff, not the pink stuff sold in Wallyworld?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #10  
Old 11-08-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: San Francisco Bay area
Posts: 2,300
Thanks: 2
Thanked 45 Times in 45 Posts
Rep Power: 4
MarkSF is on a distinguished road
Re: Rusty water on startup,

Your answer that "it's cooled by the river" doesn't really tell us whether your boat has a heat exchanger. Do you have a picture of the engine? or the model no?

Nearly all internal engines are cooled by the water the boat sits in, the question is whether the raw water goes through the engine (raw water cooled) or if there is a heat exchanger that separates the raw water from a fresh water coolant circuit.

Is there a header tank anywhere that contains some wierd coloured water?

I'm a bit concerned at the suggestion to fill the raw water circuit with antifreeze, unless the owner knows to be very careful not to just pump that stuff into the river next time the boat is started. Gallons of ethylene glycol going into the bay / river is not a good thing, and could certainly earn you a massive fine around here.
__________________
1984 Bristol 31.1
Alameda, California, USA

Last edited by MarkSF; 11-08-2012 at 01:31 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
perkins -108 overheating at startup Walt61 Diesel 18 03-23-2011 06:03 AM
Too much smoke on startup TheMadchef General Discussion (sailing related) 10 09-20-2010 09:15 PM
Business grant for charter startup jimi71 Chartering 17 04-08-2007 08:38 PM
Fwd: Re: [BristolYachts] startup checklist NewsReader Mass Bay Sailors 0 06-30-2006 06:15 PM
Yanmar engine startup smoke WillS Gear & Maintenance 4 08-23-2001 05:42 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:40 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.