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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance > Engines > Diesel
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Diesel This is a forum dedicated to diesel engines and their applicable accessories.


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  #11  
Old 11-19-2012
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Re: Replacing the Auxiliary

I think that "Bob tail" means no transmission, or direct drive as no gear ratio is shown for that version ($7,440).
Beta's prices would be similar to what you found for Yanmar.
As far as I understand it, longer, heavier boats usually will use a reduction gear and swing a slightly larger prop.
Interestingly, this spec for the Sabre 34' says it was originally powered by an Atomic 4 gas engine: SABRE 34 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
but no mention is made of whether a reduction gear was used, or not.

Beta makes a few "drop in" Atomic 4 replacement diesels. The Atomic 4 is also the "drop in" replacement for some Beta engines!
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  #12  
Old 11-19-2012
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Re: Replacing the Auxiliary

Bob tail just means an engine without transmission. The Beta can be ordered with custom mounts that will match what you had, this can make the installation a lot easier, and a lot cheaper. The 30 year old Volvo may or may not be in good shape, ours is an '88 with 5000 hours on it and it runs like a top (smooth, and as quiet as can be expected) and doesn't use a drop of oil between changes. That said, I'm still considering a re-power because of the issues Caleb mentioned about parts prices and some availability problems. From my research the Beta looks to be around the same price as the Yanmar prices you found. As a rule of thumb I've been told to double the cost of the engine for the complete install job (including engine/gear).
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Old 11-20-2012
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Re: Replacing the Auxiliary

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Originally Posted by CalebD View Post
...
Could not hurt to call Beta to discuss what model might be a good fit for your boat and the price. Beta Marine US Ltd. Distributors for Kubota based marine
We replaced our original 30-YO engine with a Beta. We took it up a step from their "drop in" engine so that added to the final cost but we love it. It's so worth the money to be able to know the engine will start when I turn the key.

Communications with Beta during the research period was very satisfactory. They responded to email quickly and were extremely helpful with all my questions.
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  #14  
Old 11-20-2012
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Re: Replacing the Auxiliary

More like 15,000 to 20000 installed. If you are getting a new one it is also the time to upgrade from the 60 amp alternator to a much larger one. You may need to replace the engine bed as well as the shaft.

Personally I like the Yanmars...Beta is getting good rep also. I would stay away from Volvo as they are expensive for parts. Also if you are replacing the engine it is a good time to look at the hp to see if it was undersized for the displacement to begin with. Some of the older boats the hp was not enough.

What kind of boat are you looking at with a 22hp engine?
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Old 11-20-2012
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Re: Replacing the Auxiliary

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalebD View Post
Interestingly, this spec for the Sabre 34' says it was originally powered by an Atomic 4 gas engine: SABRE 34 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
but no mention is made of whether a reduction gear was used, or not.
!
Is this for a Sabre 34?

CraigToo's Sabre 34 has a Westerbeke 30 (old 4 cyl model). He has a hard time getting his boat up to 6kts. 22 HP is just not enough.
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  #16  
Old 11-20-2012
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Re: Replacing the Auxiliary

Yeah, thats why I was asking. A lot of the older boats were underpowered. We hav e a 27 hp Yanmar on our C&C 35. Its fine but not at all overpowered. Anything less...no way. Plus with an Electromaxx 100 alternator,

Dave
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  #17  
Old 11-20-2012
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Re: Replacing the Auxiliary

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieMor View Post
In the boat I'm looking at, the existing engine is a 23HP Volvo that's now over 30 years old and it looks like it needs replacing. These are said to be noisy and vibrate a lot. So having a new engine would be a plus. Comparable boats with newer engines run $15K+ more than this one.

With the engine replacement you would also replace hoses, exhaust, gauges and maybe even controls. I can do the electrical, gauge installations, any woodworking (if necessary) and maybe a few other things.

If I had a yard install the engine and hoses and I took care of the rest, any idea what would the price range be for that work?
Julie,

Here's some easy boat shopping criteria....

Needs an engine = Rule it out
Has a Volvo = Rule it out
Needs deck work = Rule it out
Needs a keel re-set = Rule it out

I have many more I personally follow but the above four are ones I steer people on when asked. I am dead serious about the Volvo thing too...

Having had our boat out of commission for nearly an entire season over a Volvo "parts availability" issue I swore to never, ever own another boat with a Volvo.. If a listed boat has a Volvo the boat comes right off my list to even look at.. Re-powers are running about 18-25K... Let someone else have recently paid for that...
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  #18  
Old 11-20-2012
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Re: Replacing the Auxiliary

In Don Casey's book, Inspecting the Aging Sailboat, he says, "The rule of thumb for an inboard auxiliary is 3 HP per ton of displacement" He also said, "A narrow, easily driven hull can can get away with less power..." And finally, "And if you expect to power your way into strong headwinds, you may need 4 or even 5 HP per ton."

The S34 displacement is 11,400 or 5.7 tons. That's 17.1, 22.8, and 28.5 HP respectively. The S34 is said to be easily driven, so the 22HP should be okay, according to Casey. When the wind is blowing, I sail. Only once can I remember powering into headwinds, because I had a deadline to meet.

For comparison, here's the 30HP numbers:

3YM30 ~ 30HP @ 3600RPM ~ KM2P-1A ~ 2.21 / 2.62 ~ $8,970.00
3YM30 ~ 30HP @ 3600RPM ~ KM2P-1A ~ 3.22 ~ $9,080.00
3YM30C ~ 30HP @ 3600RPM ~ SD20 ~ 2.64 ~ $11,690.00


For about $1K more, you get about 35% more power. That's a good deal. The bigger issue might be engine compartment space though. I just don't know how tight it is in there.



Anyone looking at re-powering and wanting to know prices on Yanmar engines, here's the link: Eastmar Marine Inc

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  #19  
Old 11-20-2012
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Re: Replacing the Auxiliary

That HP rating is for full up RPM, which you can only hold for 30 minutes or less (per recommendation from manufactures).

I don't have that particular book from Casey, was that shaft HP or prop HP?

My 20k displacement has a 44hp (at 3600rpm), take off 3.5 hp for the alternator, 5 hp for the efficiency loss of the transmission and I'm delivering mid 30's to the prop at Max RPM. At 2500 rpm I made 6.5 knts in 1 foot waves, 2 foot swell. At 2500 rpm I'm probably making 20 hp, maybe less to the prop as the power band greatly picks up with rpm.

Also, I think rules of thumb are great - here's another one - the engine should be able to push the boat at 90% of hull speed at 2/3 throttle into a force four headwind. It should also be able to stop the boat within 2 hull lengths when going forward at full speed.
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  #20  
Old 11-20-2012
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Re: Replacing the Auxiliary

That Yanmar would be the better chooice. 22hp is underpowered. Chuckles gave a good explaination. I run my Yanmar at 2700 rpm most of the time...its it sweet spot. It isnt giving me max hp then, less than 2500 means i am screwing up the exhaust elbow iwth carbon. Mmore than that...diminishing returms with speed vs milage

I know its ok to say you will sail when their is wind, but sometimes when out in a storm ( T storm for example) you may be powering with good chop and not want your sails up in switching or gusting winds.

Secondly If you are trying to motor into a 3 knot current, 22 hp on a 12,000 displacement boat...you will be moving much slower than hull speed.

I also agree with Maines assessments as diqualifiers on buying a boat. The engine however may not be a complete one if it is priced low enough ( 20,000 under normal price) so that a new engines cost will not affect the value.

I would have the engine looked at though...there are many factors. Our Yanmar 30 years old has about 3500 hrs on it. Thats about 30% of projected life. It is well maintained. Has had a major rebuild when I got it for about 3000 dollars and I expect it to go on forever ( well almost) as long as I maintain it. I dont like Volvos though.

dave
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