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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest Forums > Gear & Maintenance > Engines > Diesel
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Diesel This is a new forum dedicated to diesel engines and their applicable accessories.


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  #1  
Old 03-24-2013
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Starter for Universal 5416

Well, I got down to the boat today, and sure enough, the transmission was essentially without any fluid. I filled that up as per the directions, then went to start the boat to see if that did the trick, and the engine wouldn't start.

I'm not exactly mechanically inclined (electrical/computer is more my thing), but I had my dad with me, who is a former mechanic. We could hear the starter motor turn on, but it never engaged the flywheel to actually start the engine. So, we're thinking that some part of the starter is probably toast. Getting the starter off was more of a challenge than we'd hoped, and we eventually had to give up. The starter is held on by two bolts, one easy to access, and one that's deep in the bowels of the engine. This second one is the one that gave us problems, because there isn't an easy way to get to it. We're guessing we'd need a wobble socket extension, which we didn't have.

I think I'm going to throw in the towel and have a marina do the work for me so we can keep the process moving. In trying to get an idea of the cost of a new starter, I came across this High Output Alternators | Fan Motor Assembly | Power Cable Kits can anyone confirm that that is the right starter? I believe so, but would appreciate a spot-check.

Thanks!

- Jim
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Old 03-24-2013
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Re: Starter for Universal 5416

Jim the marina isn't going to have it any easier to get out one bolt. and it's going to be VERY expensive! Spider electric is very often quoted as a great source for starters and alternators. Spider Marine Electric Supply, Inc.

Did you try a direct connection to the starter first? There are so very many connections on the battery cables in boats! The batter switch on my boat had terminals that were never crimped properly.
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Old 03-24-2013
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Re: Starter for Universal 5416

Jim,
I have a wobble socket. Holler if you can make it down.

And I think it's a solenoid issue.
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Old 03-24-2013
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Re: Starter for Universal 5416

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimgo View Post
We could hear the starter motor turn on, but it never engaged the flywheel to actually start the engine. So, we're thinking that some part of the starter is probably toast.
Can you hear the starter spinning, or does the starter starting make a loud click, and hum. I am trying to verify that the starter, and not the engine, is the problem. Make sure that you can turn the crankshaft by using the compression release, and pulling on the V belt.

Denise and Chuckles are right, the the marina will charge $80+ per hour (and the guy doing the work will likely get ~$15/ hr) to do the job.

A good place to look for a starter is your local Kubota tractor dealer. A Kubota part number for my M25 engine (which is related to the M5416 engine*) is; 15231-63015. This number is probably obsolete, and may have "-" in the wrong place, but the Kubota parts guys can get you the current part number.

Unless you want to pay 4x the tractor prices, get the cross reference guide for YOUR motor.

* From the History of the Universal Motor Company, which is sprinkled throughout the internet;
Quote:
The first Universal diesel was advertised in 1976. Designated the Model 5416, it was a 45 cu in, 16 hp, 2 cylinder, based on the Kubota Z-751 block and built from 1976 to 1982. Approximately 1,000 were sold. It was replaced by the Model M20, which was produced in 1982 and 1983. Approximately 230 were sold.
...
The Model 5421, a 52 cu in, 21 hp, 3 cylinder, based on the Kubota D-850 block, was built from 1978 to 1981. Approximately 1,000 were sold. It was replaced by the Model M25, which was produced from 1981 to 1986. Approximately 3,650 were sold.
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Old 03-24-2013
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Starter for Universal 5416

We had to "service" our starter that would click but not turn over. Sometimes a few LIGHT taps with a hammer on side of starter can knock some scale loose that can build up over periods of non use. We've also had to take it off, break it down and clean more thoroughly. Just a thought to try before going the expensive route. Be sure battery switches are in off position and to disconnect that big battery lead before servicing.
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Starter for Universal 5416

Sounds like the starter drive isn't engaging the flywheel if you can hear the starter spinning, solenoid on the starter that makes the drive gear move forward to engage the flywheel not working. I think it would be simpler to just replace the starter if you get it out than rebuilding it. I've rebuilt many auto starters but on a car you don't usually get stuck somewhere in the water... Lol
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Re: Starter for Universal 5416

eherlihy, I think it's more accurate to say that the starter was spinning, and not just humming. There was a loud click as the solenoid was energized, and then you could hear it turning. We were able to turn the crankshaft by hand, which made us feel better that it was probably just the starter. I think Chuck's analysis may be accurate - its probably the solenoid.

In talking it over with my dad, we were a little concerned that the teeth on the starter may also be damaged. If I'm going to pay someone to do the work (which at this point is the most efficient solution), it seems to me that the wiser course of action would be to replace the entire starter assembly, so I know it should work properly. We're talking an extra couple hundred dollars, which certainly isn't to be discounted, but the peace of mind may be worth it.

I'd like to do the work myself, so I can learn more, but there's a point where it isn't time-efficient or cost-effective to do.
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Old 03-24-2013
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Re: Starter for Universal 5416

Leo, I'll have to keep the tapping idea in mind. Hopefully the replacement will solve the problem, but this could come in handy if I have another problem.
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Old 03-24-2013
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Re: Starter for Universal 5416

Jim,

If I've found the right starter, you have pre-engaged starter on that engine.

If you didn't hear a grinding, gawd awful sound then I think there's little chance that you have gear tooth problems.

If you can hear the starter spinning, then the likely fault is somewhere in the solenoid. Either the actuator arm is broken or stuck, or the electro-magnet plunger is stuck.

Before you pull the entire starter, remove the solenoid -- that should be far simpler and faster than pulling the entire assembly. Either check it out yourself or take it to starter/alternator repair shop to bench test it. If you are lucky, then your existing solenoid is salvageable. If not, then buy a new solenoid -- take the old one with you to do a side-by-side comparison with the new one (a lesson I learned the hard way ).

If it's not the solenoid, it could be that the bendix (the gearing that engages the ring-gear on the flywheel) is frozen. To fix that, you'll need to pull the starter.

Good luck,
PF
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Old 03-25-2013
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Re: Starter for Universal 5416

PorFin,
Thanks for the feedback! We didn't hear a grinding sound, thankfully. You may be right, it may be a problem with the solenoid, or with the linkage between the solenoid and the body of the starter.
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