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Comparing diesel vrs electric propulsion(DIY/Production) in terms of resell value

23K views 155 replies 40 participants last post by  Captain Canuck 
#1 ·
Hey everyone!

So I'm curious, electric propulsion systems in sailboats are becoming more viable and used these days.

The cost of a off-the-shelf package for an electric system is very expensive, yet price comparable to a diesel engine.

What is everyone's opinion for sailboats that operate pure electric propulsion vrs diesel? What about DIY electric propulsion(given it's setup correctly).

Does electric production based systems increase the boat value more so than diesel? What about DIY ones?

We all know that generally a gas engine will decrease the value of the boat vrs diesel, but lets compare what the value of one is when comparing diesel and electric
 
#3 ·
Seems to me electric propulsion will continue to be relatively limited range so it would depend on the local area and the intended usage. In areas where simply daysailing is the norm and power is needed only to leave the marina and return to your berth at the end of the day, it makes perfect sense. If you have an hour or 3 in reserve to get back home in case the wind dies, then good.

But for the type of sailing we do, and most do in the PNW the distances can be long, tides can be strong and many boats cruise extensively, esp in summer season known for generally light winds. I suspect it would be difficult to rely on electric, however tempting it must be. The idea of 'silent' power is appealing indeed.

There's a repowered (electric) Ericson 34 in town here, we've followed her out into the bay a time or two.. I don't know if they are very laid back, or if they are doing the best they can but I've never seen that boat motor at over 3-4 knots.

Overall I don't see it as a value enhancer yet. We do have a member here who uses Epower, hopefully they'll weigh in.
 
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#4 ·
I don't know if they are very laid back, or if they are doing the best they can but I've never seen that boat motor at over 3-4 knots.
That's because @ 3-4 knots you're getting the most bang out of the battery bank without depleting it/going below the DOD based upon what you've got for batteries. EP boats can do hull speed but not for very long. As the speed increases so doesn't the amperage draw.

I think most folks that go EP are sailors that sail. They plan their exits & entries around the tides so they can use them to their advantage instead of fighting them. That's my take on it.
 
#7 ·
Since I have not felt the need to look at another boat since I bought my Nonsuch 30 in 1995. I have even less desire to now that I have EP. :) I expect my estate will end up selling the boat at some point. :) That said another selling point would be to open up the bilge and engine area. It is very easy to sell the smell of clean on an EP boat. Harder to get rid of the smell of oil and diesel on boats with an ICE. It should be easy to sell the smell of clean especially when the wife is on board and has to give the nod to the purchase.
 
#8 ·
The odor issue is all over the place, I get more head odors than Diesel. On a newer Glass boat with a proper drip pan that's clean enough to eat off of and fresh paint on the engine, new fuel lines etc. but that would be a hijack. Old Boats, forget about wood and its un manageable. The noise comments are right on point. I think it was Hunter or Catalina who produced a Keel that was a replaceable Battery if its going to catch on it needs to be this, when tried last it didn't take. To run a Gen to refill Batteries will never sustain the system, every time energy is converted some is lost and efficiency goes out the door and the time quotient 10 hrs to refill a 2-4 hr charge if that.
 
#9 ·
I have been wondering about durability of electric power systems. A well tended diesel engine can last 50 years in a sailboat. Can the same be said about an electric power system? If not, that certainly does not add value to the boat the same way diesel engine does.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Check out the retired New York City Fireboat John J. Harvey now in private hands. They usually give free tours at various waterfront festivals in the Northeast U.S. It was built in the 1930's and uses electric motors to drive the props. The ICE motors that powered the generators to run propulsion and power the water pumps were originally gas but, were changed to diesel in the 1950's. However the electric motors that turn the props are the original ones installed in the 1930's. Still propelling the boat along after all these years.

The change out of the motors that drive the generators shows the versatility of an EP system. Upgrades are easily done as new technologies come along especially when it comes to battery storage. Electric motors have been used in ferries for decades and in cruise ships like the Queen Mary 2. From my own experience too the reliability has been proven.

Also don't forget we are talking about a "sailboat" with EP tech not a trawler. :) Other aspects of resale are the ability to make fuel (energy) while at anchor (or underway) via solar and wind and the ability to regen while under sail. These are also additional selling points. While not everyone will want to get rid of the iron pig but, I'm glad I did and would never go back.
 
#10 ·
Many comments same niche. For a daysailor of any size I see the attraction. Without the Keel Battery I don't see it working on larger longer distance cruisers. When a manageable Battery system can keep up with a cruiser in the 35-40 ft range with 200 gals of Diesel on board then there's progress. Battery technologies are growing everyday. Solar panels in your cruising laminate?
 
#12 ·
For the type of sailing I currently do I would prefer an electric, but the value to me would probably only be a few thousand dollars more. But this is almost exclusively just motoring in and out of the harbor with a 25nm motor a few times a year. If we were doing much distance cruising I wouldn't own an electric only boat at all.
 
#13 ·
Our boat was repowered with an electric drive by the previous owner. As it relates to resale, I can see that being dependent on the thoughts and feelings of the customer. For some an electric drive is a plus, while for others it is a minus. Ours has performed admirably, but I am thinking of changing props. For those considering going this route, I would tell them to weigh the compromises and see if it works for their individual set of circumstances.
 
#14 · (Edited)
As pointed out, it's hard to determine whether the niche that would like EP would help or hurt value. My guess is those that desire EP are fewer. However, if you find one, they may be willing to pay, so who knows.

I think the value issue comes from DIY re-engineering. Whenever major systems are re-engineered, there is going to be some question about whether it's been done properly. Yes, there are plenty of OEM's that have messed up over the years, but they're a known quantity and their design flaws are documented after a period of time. The one off design is questionable.

I come down on it hurting value overall.

That's different from saying EP is bad. If you like it, go for it. However, beyond the value issue, I would encourage one to be clear what they are looking for. If it's quieter, they win the prize. If trying to be environmentally friendly, I'm highly skeptical, unless one really does recharge off solar and wind turbines. The vast majority of the electricity coming through a shore power cable to recharge is created with fossil fuel, not to mention the fossil fuel need to create the EP and especially the batteries. EP that recharges, via shore power, is upside down on the green equation.
 
#15 · (Edited)
I agree it's still a niche market but, growing. Sailing with EP is different than with a diesel. Beyond the quietness and less need for maintenance. One does have to keep an eye on the amps pulled from the battery but, those can be easily replaced by operating in a hybrid mode using a generator. I find I can meet all my needs including all day motoring with a portable 48 lb Honda 2000i . Others may be more comfortable with an installed marine diesel. Both are often already carried on board with boats that have a diesel engine installed so it's not exotic technology that makes up an EP system. Though EP operation is new in the smaller boat marine market.

There is a small learning curve with an EP system. One has to get comfortable with it. At first I was real cautious on how I used it. For example during my first trip to New York with EP making the transit through Hell Gate I had my Honda generator running all the way down the East River. I did not know how much I would use the propulsion. It turns out very little. So now I just operate under battery alone using a little thrust here and there to straighten out the boat. It's so quiet I can even converse with those walking along the Manhattan shoreline. You also notice how loud the FDR traffic really is. :)

After eight years of using it I would feel more comfortable doing long distance cruising with my EP system over the old diesel. Knowing I will never have to go below the cockpit to do any things like replace clogged diesel fuel filters or raw water filter which was never fun but, even less so in a pitching sea. Same for pump impellers. Having solar, wind and regen charging are also another plus. Which should also limited the need for firing up a generator. I don't see EP limiting long distance cruising at all.

It does make you a better sailor and actually compliments the sailing experience with the quietness. Which IMO is also a selling point. I always loath firing up the diesel when the winds got light. I don't hesitate with EP because it is so quiet and vibration free.

Another selling point would be that one could also use the boat on an inland lake that does not allow ICE engines. That is if it the right size and you don't have a marine diesel installed.
 
#18 ·
I love my solar Bimini. It has three uses on board. Shade, energy and water. They are currently keeping my propulsion bank topped up over the winter. They also serve as a water collector. A project I'm hoping to finish for the up coming season. The water will be stored in the old 30 gallon on board diesel tank which I have cleaned. That water will be used for cockpit wash downs and deck cleaning and maybe plumbed to the head intake too.
 
#17 ·
James from Electroprop has installed a 2 panel tilting solar system on his boat & claims he can run his EP off sun power only. There are some other folks out there doing the same thing. Mike has a pretty cool set up his boat.
Between solar, wind & water regen while sailing, it can be done for long distance cruising.

Does this make EP "green"? In my opinion NO but you have to admit it is pretty friggin cool.
 
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#21 ·
Our first boat was a 27' with and outboard that did not charge the house battery. Hooked up a solar panel, installed all LED lighting and managed my our electricity. Took the boat on a 2 week trip and did good keeping the batteries topped off with only one night of shore power in the middle.

That said our new boat has an 35 amp alternator on the motor but we still have solar etc. It is really nice to be able to run the motor only an hour a day and have the batteries topped off, rain or shine.

My A4 is a 76', funny as our boat is a 78.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Well my gas motor (A4) is still cranking along at over 40 years old, no rebuild to my knowledge. Though the previous owner did keep her on a mooring and mostly raced, so I imagine some days she was out never got started.

So it is not just diesels that last a long time. Any engine or motor can with proper care and maintenance. On that old fire boat, they may be "original" motors, but how many times have the bearings, and wingdings been replaced? One thing about an electric motor is if designed to be, they can be rebuilt for ever. The housings may be the same but the rest likely have been replaced. kind of like the wood boat that is "original" yet every piece of wood has been replaced at some point. Of course today they don't build things with the intent of being rebuilt or even serviced.
 
#25 ·
For my use the range issues are still too limiting to with EP, I am not ready to do that much planning for each trip on the boat. I do wonder about the advantages as to maintenance and weight. A 20hp electric motor looks to be about 1/2 the weight of a diesel and not having to deal with a cooling, lubrication, fuel and exhaust systems would be a big plus. The total EP setup would still be heavy when you include battery capacity, but the individual components are manageable. I suspect 2 people could swap out a 20 hp electric motor without the need for added lifting equipment. I also suspect this could be done faster than it takes me to change the oil and fuel filters on my boat. I would rather swap out a battery than clean a fuel tank, and getting rid of 2 through hulls would be a plus as well.
 
#27 · (Edited)
Even with AGM battery bank the weight of my EP system was still 100 pounds lighter than the old diesel. That's not including all the spare parts I also took off the boat. Would be even lighter if I ever convert to Lithium batteries. But, you are right the major components are easily managed too. I carried the entire motor to the boat in a canvas boat bag. I can pull the motor in about 10 minutes myself.
 
#26 ·
I think the tech is there and getting cheaper and better quickly. The experience with EP is not there and many sailors find the electronics a mysterious force. Getting sailors to change from the dependable iron genny saving their butts for 50 years is a hard sell. It will get there.

Has anyone looked at hydromax from hydrovane? Fuel cell for more quite power source and no need to have gasoline or diesel.
 
#37 ·
I really feel that people lose a lot of efficiency by installing EP and not doing things like optimising the prop.
Electric motors have a totally different torque curve than ICE propulsion.

We recently had a new poster with a Pearson 30 with EP and his numbers weren't very impressive. One of the first things I asked him, was if the hull was clean, and if his running gear was clean. After many posts, he finally responded that the prop was indeed, a barnacle reef and once clean, his power use greatly improved. If you go electric, a clean hull and running gear is essential. You have to be ruthless about it, like a racer. Many cruisers just don't think that way.

I'm one of those people who is very stubborn about sailing vs. using the engine, so I'm considering going electric if/when my Atomic-4 dies. I'll be spec'ing out my battery pack for maximum range at 4-5 kts and see what kind of pack that requires. It may not be feasible to get the range I want. We'll see.
 
#40 ·
I don't do anything different as far as hull cleaning than I did when I had a diesel. It's always a good practice to keep hull and prop clean IMO. I'm also using the same 3 bladed prop I had when I had my diesel installed. I've been very happy with the performance.

Still I am planning to install a tach on the prop shaft this year so when I do my annual harbor test I can compare the results with any new prop I may buy to see if I can optimize things even more. EP can be boring once installed so experimenting and changing things can keep things interesting . :) Plus it's easy to do.
 
#39 ·
Before I took up sailing, I used to be a gearhead. I restored a DeLorean, and I owned enough classic VW's to cause my own traffic jam.

Eventually, I became more interested in motive technology and cared less what "sound" it made. I converted a 74 Beetle to battery power and put 20,000 miles on it in less than 2 years. People hate CVT's because they don't like the "sound" the engine makes when used with a CVT. I love the CVT in my Subaru Outback. It's a simple, sealed unit that is zero maintenance, my fuel economy is nearly 40mpg, and it's actually pretty quiet.

Electric motors don't usually whine, at least not loudly. The PWM controllers that drive them may emit an annoying tone at low speeds when the switching is slow.

What I love most about electric propulsion, is that it's "on demand". There's no starting, or praying for starting. Electric motors have a single moving part and thus, are very reliable.
 
#43 ·
It's not loud that gives me that feeling inside, it's a particular kind of noise. A honda generator doesn't do it for me, that's more like baseball cards in the bicylcle spokes. A 426 hemi does it, as does the Merlin in a P51 Mustang. Love all jet noise.

For fear of channeling some inner stinkpotter, I prefer to sail, but not for the silence. In fact, it's never quiet aboard our boat in any kind of wind to speak of. I like high wind sound too.

I've never heard an electric motor that did anything for me. Not saying there is anything wrong with them, just interesting that they don't cause the feeling.
 
#51 ·
I have been hearing that diesel engines last up to 50 yrs but if you have to rebuild then isn't there cost involved? Just wondering how much a total rebuild is today on a 25-50hp diesel? The allure of EP for me would little or no maintenance. Another question would be how much time is spent doing maintenance?
Love to hear everyone opinions.
Dean
 
#52 ·
Less than it will cost to replace the battery bank in a few years.
Batteries start losing capacity right away and it goes down with each charge cycle until they do you no good.
And yes this applies to lithium chemistry, have a box full of old lithium batteries for rc stuff that are no longer up to the task.
You are looking at 300-500 charge cycles.
Depending on boat use that may not be a very long time, thinking full time live aboard cruiser.
Down the road I do think electric will be the way to go, just not with batteries! Hydrogen fuel cell or something like that technology.
 
#54 ·
1900$ for a 150 amp hour battery! So rebuild the diesel for almost the cost of ONE battery!
I also want to see the claims backed up by facts and real world testing, not ideal conditions in the lab.
I'd rather spend 1900$ in diesel, no worse for the environment, probably better for it!
Ever wonder why most batteries are made in China or Korea?
 
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