Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items









Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest Forums > Gear & Maintenance > Electrical Systems
 Not a Member? 



Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 11-06-2009
mitiempo's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
Posts: 5,776
Rep Power: 4
mitiempo will become famous soon enough
Battery chargers are required to have a fuse in the output wire to the batteries - at least according to Xantrex. The previous models (truecharge 20 and 40) were according to the manual to have fuses of 25 and 50 amps accordingly. The current model uses the chart I posted to determine fuse size based on gauge of the output wire.
Brian
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 11-06-2009
pdqaltair's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,304
Rep Power: 4
pdqaltair is on a distinguished road
Recomendations, perhaps specifications. Government authorities make regulations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
ABYC requires a fuse within 7" a power source. A battery fuse of 250 or 300 amps will not protect a 12GA wire for a charger..
Good recommendations.

NEC and Coast Guard Code are regulations. Many associations (API, SAE, ASME, NFPA) make recommendations. They are "regulation" when adopted as part of a regulation.

Unless I misunderstand.
__________________
(when asked how he reached the starting holds on a difficult rock climbing problem that clearly favored taller climbers - he was perhaps 5'5")

"Well, I just climb up to them."

by Joe Brown, English rock climber




To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2009
osirissail's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Caribbean
Posts: 76
Rep Power: 3
osirissail is on a distinguished road
Well, the addition of the fuses to the power output leads of the Xantrex battery chargers is something new. It was never mentioned by Xantrex or other battery chargers 10 years ago when I bought mine. Checking the Charles Battery charger manual - I just purchased a Charles, they also have a notation that the power leads from the battery need to be fused within 7" of the batteries. There have been several major changes in the ABYC recommendations in the last few years and obviously this is one of them. A friend of mine back when I was selling, repairing and installing marine equipment, was a member of the ABYC advisory committee(or whatever it was called) and frequently submitted suggestions for improvements to the standards. After I worked on 3 boats that had electrical fires due to unfused battery cables, he submitted a recommendation for a change in that subject area. He did say it took years to get anything through as they have to get input from a lot of places and then the agreement from the major boat manufacturers before they could publish. So I suppose this area was finally updated, which is very good news as 10 boats burn due to electrical fires for every one sinking due to collision with underwater obstacles.
- - Xantrex - I also have one as my #2 battery charger has a history of blowing out the output transistors/diodes. I have been through 3 of the chargers in 10 years. One of the failures was due to excessive back-voltage getting to the chargers and exploding them. The addition of the fuses/c/b's might help reduce that problem for the company. But the Charles manual specifically states the fusing is an ABYC standard. And the placement of the fuses "within 7 inches" of the batteries means that the purpose is to protect the connecting wires from the chargers to the batteries from catching on fire due to dead short at the charger. This is both logical and a good change in the ABYC standards. All wiring needs to be fused or have a c/b rated for the max carrying capacity of the wire or the load item at the end of the wire whichever is lower. The fuse/c/b should be located at the junction were a higher amount of power is available (e.g.: at the battery end; at the main distribution panel end).
- - The best reference book for all things mechanical and electrical is Nigel Calder's trusted Mechanical and Electrical Manual. I hope the book has been updated to reflect these recent (meaning last 5 years or so) changes. Or there may be other books more up to date. One of the best things about Nigel's book is the charts for wire sizes versus carrying load and wire run lengths. He had tables for both 4% and 10% wire loss. In general the book explains everything very well.
- - Always learning something new . . .
* There is a new amendment out by ABYC. ABYC is the major boat standards organization and also allied with the European ISO standards organizations. Insurance companies always want compliance with ABYC standards or they will not pay off, so boat manufacturers are very involved in the process of implementing the standards if they want to sell boats. Anyway the new amendment address electrical leakages on boats. I will put up a new thread on the subject.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Sponsored Links
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2009
mitiempo's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
Posts: 5,776
Rep Power: 4
mitiempo will become famous soon enough
While Calder's books are excellent, here's a better faster way to get the proper wire size for a particular purpose. Just plug in the % of loss, run length, and amperage it will have to carry and it gives you the proper gauge.
Brian
AWG by wire length/amps calculator
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 11-08-2009
BELLATRIX1965's Avatar
Maine Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Penobscot Bay Maine
Posts: 140
Rep Power: 6
BELLATRIX1965 is on a distinguished road
Perhaps TWO (2) fuses????

Quote:
Originally Posted by osirissail View Post
This is both logical and a good change in the ABYC standards. All wiring needs to be fused or have a c/b rated for the max carrying capacity of the wire or the load item at the end of the wire whichever is lower. The fuse/c/b should be located at the junction were a higher amount of power is available (e.g.: at the battery end; at the main distribution panel end).
OK - this makes sense to a point - however the point of highest potential is at the CHARGER, not the battery - otherwise, it would never charge the batteries! Maybe a charger lead should have a fuse at both ends???
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 11-09-2009
osirissail's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Caribbean
Posts: 76
Rep Power: 3
osirissail is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by BELLATRIX1965 View Post
OK - this makes sense to a point - however the point of highest potential is at the CHARGER, not the battery - otherwise, it would never charge the batteries! Maybe a charger lead should have a fuse at both ends???
- - The word "Potential" is used in electric circuits to mean "voltage". It is the "amperes" that cause the heating problem (in combination with volts to make watts.) It would be extremely rare and IMHO virtually impossible for a battery charger to output an over-voltage significant enough to affect the wire safety. You can run many Kilovolts down a hair thin wire so long as the amperes are kept extremely low. TV CRT's (old fashioned tube-TV's) had several kilo-volts delivered to them in rather small size wires.
- - For instance during the starting of your engine, up to a thousand amperes race down your starting cable at 10 to 12 volts. Only because the time factor is a few seconds or less does the cable not catch on fire. Fuses and C/B's are rated to blow/trip only after a preset amount of time. Excessive amps through a C/B start a heating process that will "trip" it when sufficient heat is generated. After tripping you have to wait for the element inside to cool before you can reset the C/B.
- - The real threat to your wires - reference a battery charger - is the shorting of a component in the battery charger that would allow excessive amperage to flow from the "well/big supply" held in the batteries through the wires to the battery charger causing the wires to heat up and catch fire.
- - There are internal fuses inside the battery charger that will blow if you attempt to "suck" more power out of the battery charger than it is rated to supply. This would happen if there was an internal short in a battery or a dead short at the output of the battery charger. These protections have been in place for a very long time. What wasn't done previously was protect the wires from the battery supply end as it was considered highly unlikely that something could cause a dead short up inside the battery charger.
- - All the connections used to be up inside a compartment of the battery charger - now they are external to the battery charger case and some stray piece of metal could physically fall across the gap between ground and hot terminals causing the dead short.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 11-11-2009
BELLATRIX1965's Avatar
Maine Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Penobscot Bay Maine
Posts: 140
Rep Power: 6
BELLATRIX1965 is on a distinguished road
My bad!

OK - right after I hit "Post", it dawned on me that my observation was not too sharp - for two reasons:

1) Absolutely - it's the current! The old formula P = i x e came instantly to mind.
2) Most battery chargers have a fused output - so there already IS a fuse on the charger end of the output wire!

Sometimes typing before thinking. . . .
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Quick disconnect at mast for wiring? mikeedmo Gear & Maintenance 17 11-13-2006 07:42 PM
Connect or disconnect doubleplay Gear & Maintenance 5 08-28-2003 12:11 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:08 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012