Xantrex/Heart Freedom 25 -- How to connect Water Heater - Page 3 - SailNet Community

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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance > Electrical Systems
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  #21  
Old 10-21-2010
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Stu, thanks for the discussion. Maybe I've missed something. I'm looking to use the hot water heater as a dump load - a place to put the current that the wind generator has to produce on windy days, when the batteries are fully charged.

There are several options. I actually like the idea of not going through the I/C, since I will likely have that powered off when I'm away from the boat for more than a couple days.

Also, I recognize that I may need another breaker panel, if my current one won't support the routing I've laid out.

So far, the bottom diagram looks the best, if I can figure out how to connect the 12 volt half of the element to a thermostat.

Regards,
Brad
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  #22  
Old 10-21-2010
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The 12/120 unit is 2 separate heating elements with their own connections in the same screw in housing.
The wiring in the last diagram makes sense but doesn't have the breakers shown as Brian said. The way I would wire it is shorepower inlet to main AC panel, output from one of the breakers on that panel to the inverter/charger and then out to a sub panel that has outlets on it which is probably all that is desired to run with the inverter. The water heater (120 volt element) is run from the main panel before the inverter. The 12 volt element is run from the dump load controller. The only question is the thermostat on the 12 volt element. And if the batteries are charged and the water reaches temp in the heater what happens to the dump load then?
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  #23  
Old 10-21-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
The 12/120 unit is 2 separate heating elements with their own connections in the same screw in housing.
The wiring in the last diagram makes sense but doesn't have the breakers shown as Brian said. The way I would wire it is shorepower inlet to main AC panel, output from one of the breakers on that panel to the inverter/charger and then out to a sub panel that has outlets on it which is probably all that is desired to run with the inverter. The water heater (120 volt element) is run from the main panel before the inverter. The 12 volt element is run from the dump load controller. The only question is the thermostat on the 12 volt element. And if the batteries are charged and the water reaches temp in the heater what happens to the dump load then?
We had this setup for years, and it worked quite well. There isn't a way for the 12v to shut off when the water gets hot, but then I never saw our high output wind gen create that much power to heat the water. It takes a lot of power to heat water electrically.

If our batteries were at 100% and we had very hot water, then I could always shut off the wind gen. The only time away from shore that this happened was when we were motoring, but the engine also heated the water and I don't think Brad has that.
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  #24  
Old 10-21-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
The 12/120 unit is 2 separate heating elements with their own connections in the same screw in housing.
The wiring in the last diagram makes sense but doesn't have the breakers shown as Brian said. The way I would wire it is shorepower inlet to main AC panel, output from one of the breakers on that panel to the inverter/charger and then out to a sub panel that has outlets on it which is probably all that is desired to run with the inverter. The water heater (120 volt element) is run from the main panel before the inverter. The 12 volt element is run from the dump load controller. The only question is the thermostat on the 12 volt element. And if the batteries are charged and the water reaches temp in the heater what happens to the dump load then?
That all makes sense. I think hte Inverter/SCHarger has it own circuit breaker in it for the 110v it supplies. If the only thing it is powering are the 110v outlets (which is true), I'm wondering if I need another set of circuit breakers. It should be covered by the output breaker on the I/C.

I'm planning another dump load, set at a very slightly higher voltage. That one will power fans in the boat.

I still want a thermostat on the 12v element. We are on the boat infrequently in the fall. I'd like it to be as idiot-proof as possible. If the wind blows (and in the fall it will blow 20 knots all night long), I don't want a hot water heater explosion.

Regards,
Brad
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  #25  
Old 10-21-2010
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Originally Posted by remetau View Post
We had this setup for years, and it worked quite well. There isn't a way for the 12v to shut off when the water gets hot, but then I never saw our high output wind gen create that much power to heat the water. It takes a lot of power to heat water electrically.

If our batteries were at 100% and we had very hot water, then I could always shut off the wind gen. The only time away from shore that this happened was when we were motoring, but the engine also heated the water and I don't think Brad has that.
Actually, the engine does make hot water when it's running. We simply don't motor around much in the summer so it's not part of the hot water equation, except that it increases the requirement for another dump load.

You are more fortunate than I, in that you get to spend so much time on your boat. When we are off the boat (and typically 100 miles away) is when the other dump load will be needed.

I don't want to have to remember the 12v element off-switch -- and it may be my wife who is last onboard before a break. I don't want her to have to remember either.

I guess a lot of the design hinges on whether we can get a separate thermostat for the 12v element.

Discussing this is really helping. Thank you.

Regards,
Brad
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To my knowledge there is not an output breaker on the Freedom 25. You will need a breaker panel after the inverter's output.
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  #27  
Old 10-21-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
Brian
To my knowledge there is not an output breaker on the Freedom 25. You will need a breaker panel after the inverter's output.
Brian, you're right, there isn't, and that's exactly what I was getting at. The 110 V outlets shown in Brad's diagrams are wrong because here's how the Freedom I/C works:

The Freedom takes the place of 120V shorepower when you are away from shorepower for the 120V loads. So, the shorepower comes into the boat, but instead of going to the AC main breaker, it first goes to the Freedom. The Freedom has an internal switch that determines if shorepower is present. If it is, it passes it through to the AC main breaker. If not, then either the inverter is energized by the Link 2000 or the switch on the Freedom. In no case can both sources of AC power (i.e., shorepower AND inverter power) be ON at the same time.

The AC wiring is: shorepower to boat inlet, to Freedom, to AC main breaker, then to the AC loads, whatever they may be.

Either the inverter OR the shorepower is the source of AC into the AC main breaker.

This may simply be a misunderstanding on how the Freedom works for Brad, or indeed his boat may actually be wired this way, in which case the 120V outlets wouldn't work off the inverter as drawn.

Brad, if I understand you correctly, you said: "When we are off the boat (and typically 100 miles away) is when the other dump load will be needed." I don't get it. Why would you want to heat hot water when you're not there? And if so, and you find that elusive 12V thermostat, what happens if it craps out when you're not there?

I really think you're over-thinking a simple boat management issue.

Why not just let the windmill charge the batteries and turn on and off based on standard wind machine technology? And consider only using a simple DC system I/O switch for the 12V element of your hot water heater. You say you're afraid your mate will forget to turn it off. If you run it from your main DC panel, don't you already turn your 1-2-B switch off when you leave the boat (and have the crew trained to do so all the time)?

I'm just having trouble understanding the basic design criteria for what I consider to be an unnecessary complication to a simple system.

But if you can find a way to make it work, I'm all ears.
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Or the power from shorepower to main AC panel, output from 30 amp breaker to Freedom and then out to a sub panel with only the loads that are desired to run from the inverter. This way there is no chance of overloading the inverter and things like AC water heaters and room heaters are used on shorepower only.
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Last edited by mitiempo; 10-21-2010 at 03:03 PM. Reason: add
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  #29  
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Brian, good point. Still, Brad's original drawing is incorrect based on that reference diagram, since the 110V outlets he shows come off the incoming AC wiring, unless, again, he's really had it wired that way. That's all.
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Old 10-21-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
Brian, good point. Still, Brad's original drawing is incorrect based on that reference diagram, since the 110V outlets he shows come off the incoming AC wiring, unless, again, he's really had it wired that way. That's all.
Good discussion.

I don't see that in my drawing. The 110v outlets come only off the inverter/charger.

(Circuit breakers were left out of the diagram to keep help discuss the overall design.)

Except for the original picture (which Sailingdog pointed out had a flaw in it, and which I modified accordingly in later pictures) the other pictures are very viable alternatives.

I intend to connect 2 things to shore power: 1) Inverter/Charger and 2) the water heater 110v element. I expect to have everything protected by circuit breakers.

Regards,
Brad
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Last edited by Bene505; 10-21-2010 at 09:39 PM.
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