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Xantrex/Heart Freedom 25 -- How to connect Water Heater

14K views 64 replies 6 participants last post by  mitiempo 
#1 ·
I'd like to have my hot water heater only heating under 2 circumstances: 1) the boat is connected to shore power or 2) as a dump load for the wind generator, when the batteries have reached a preset voltage.

This is what I'm thinking. Can anyone here add some insight to this?



The relay is something I'll put together that is normally open connecting the dump load controll, but when shore power is connected it will close to allow shore power to connect to the hot water heater.

I am not planning to get a 12v element for the hot water heater. I will have some loss when the wind is heating my water, but it will mean that I'll have the flexibility of connecting to shore power (oftern in winter/spring, extremely rare in summer/fall).

Circuit breakers are not shown. I need to look at the existing box and see if I can rewire just the breaker for the hot water heater, to disconnect it from the normal input and connect it to the relay. Or I may need a separate box altogether for the hotwater heater -- or use a fuse maybe to save room.

The normal input for the circuit breakers will now be connected to the inverter/charger instead of shore power.

The dump load controller will be a Xantrex C60 (which I already own) or a Flexcharge. I don't know if the Flexcharge or the C60 will NOT open and close rapidly as the voltage hovers around the preset voltage or if they will have some hysteresis and open/close more gracefully. I'll have to see how that goes.

Any thought on this?

Regards,
Brad
 
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#2 ·
Just curious, how would you be stepping the voltage from the dump controller up to the 110 VAC needed by the water heater, since you're not getting a 12 VDC element for it. I don't see an inverter in the diagram that would be connected to the dump controller.
 
#3 ·
Good question!

I'll use the dump controller to activate a relay that connects the water heater to the "other" 110v output that currently deadends in the picture.

Regards,
Brad
 
#4 ·
Then where is all the electricity that is being dumped by the dump controller going??? If you're not putting that through the inverter, what are you doing with it?
 
#5 · (Edited)
Why complicate things? This seems to imply that you will be leaving the inverter function ON all the time, right? Or else the relay wouldn't work. If you are intending to do this when you are away from the boat, then shorepower would either be available, making it moot, or you'd be disconnected from shorepower and want to dump the wind power, but there'd be no need for hot water 'cuz you wouldn't be there.

If you are on board, then it's simpler to simply turn on the heater when your conditions are met.

How are you controlling the inverter function of the Freedom? Link 2000? Remote panel?

The heater element only usually needs about 15 minutes or so to warm up 6 gallons. If you have an 11 gallon heater, maybe half an hour. We never leave ours on beyond that time, and only turn it on again when the hot water runs out when power is available. I've used our Freedom 15 inverter function to run the heater element, but only with the engine running. Only done this twice, since we change our showering and hot water habits to only after engine running, thus negating the need for electricity for hot water. Too many people leave their hot water heaters plugged in all the time.

What you'll find is that you'll draw down the voltage of the house bank so much by using the inverter function to heat the water that I'd bet the relay would start chattering, at best, or only open for such a short period of time as to make the automatic feature somewhat useless.

I would recommend a manual operation. I'd also try it out manually first to see what happens and to see if I'm anywhere close in my evaluation.

Interesting concept though.
 
#6 ·
And they tell me I think too much! How bout you get or build a small solar hot water collector and just use a small 12 volt circulator? I can't imagine the amp load for a 12v element!
 
#8 ·
I agree with others, why complicate this?

Connect the water heater to a breaker on the AC panel. You can turn it on when on shore. We never ran it from an inverter, it would draw too much, but we did run it using a Honda generator.

Install a 12v heating element. If your water heater has only one element, then you can get a new element that has 110v and 12v connections on it.

I prefer the Flexcharge over the C60 since it dumps the load directly from the wind turbine instead of the batteries.
 
#9 ·
Both 110v and 12v connections on the same heater element? Nice. I may have to look into it.

We spend the summer on the hook, usually at the beach all day. It would be great to have hot water when we return. But only as a dump load for the wind generator. I have no desire to run down the batteries heating hot water. Where were are, the average wind in July and August is something like 10 or 12 knots.

Note that the water will heat up eventually (especially if we just ran the engine, which would make the batteries more charged too) and I'll still need another dump load. That second dump load will be a more standard type (heater or fans, probably both). I left that out of the diagram to make the conversation here a little easier.

Thanks for the insights. More diagrams coming...

Regards,
Brad
 
#13 ·
Any idea how the 12v heating element knows when to turn off? The 110v circuit must run through a termostat of some type. I would think that the same thermostat couldn't be used with 12v at the same time.

I wouldn't want to create a boiling/exploding hot water heater ala mythbusters.

Regards,
Brad
 
#12 · (Edited)
Remetau -- good input on the effectiveness of heating via wind. The second dump load is just in case the water is already hot.

.

Here are a couple of options, based on some of the input here.

This first one uses a dump load controller to trigger a relay which lets powerf flow from the Freedom 25 inverter whenever the battery voltage starts getting too high from the wind generator charging.



This next picture uses a second inverter that I already have in place. The dump load controller sends battery power to that inverter, which in turn powers the hot water heater.



I made these diagrams this morning, before I realized there were dual input heating elements.

I'll have to make another diagram using the 110v/12v heating element.

Regards,
Brad
 
#14 ·
Here's the diagram with the dual element. It's much simpler, eliminating all relays.

Regards,
Brad

 
#15 ·
Brian's post is interesting and would be what you're looking for. Please note it's only 500 W at 120V. Most 120 V heaters are 1500 W.

All the 300 W and 500 W ratings mean is that it'll take longer to heat your water.

From your use descriptions, it sounds like what you're doing is elective, and not necessary.

Here's why:

When you've finished motoring to an anchorage, your water will be hot. After a day at anchor, not more hot water, but your wind machine will provide your hot water heating. No wind? Use your inverter, but that's not a good idea unless you have a HUGE house bank.

I wonder how the combined 12V/120V heater element is wired to have two sources to the same element without MANUAL switching between the two different voltage inputs.

If it was my boat, I'd keep it simple. Wind dump to house bank. Either choose 12V or combined 120V/12V heater element. Do the switching manually with a simple dump. Forget using the inverter for hot water.

Every time something else is added, it requires a backup, so plan on bypasses around what you add or backup "pieces" of "stuff."

Toggle switches are good bypasses! :)
 
#16 ·
One other thing

Unless your boat is actually wired that way, your diagram is wrong.

You should have an AC main breaker to an AC distribution panel.

The shorepower comes into the I/C, then back to the AC main breaker and then to the 110 Outlets and the hot water heater. The I/C has the transfer switch inside it.
 
#17 ·
Yes, that's the way it is (or it will be once I install the Freedom 25 I/C). I think I typed that I was leaving the breakers out of the diagram to keep it simple.

Regards,
Brad
 
#21 ·
Stu, thanks for the discussion. Maybe I've missed something. I'm looking to use the hot water heater as a dump load - a place to put the current that the wind generator has to produce on windy days, when the batteries are fully charged.

There are several options. I actually like the idea of not going through the I/C, since I will likely have that powered off when I'm away from the boat for more than a couple days.

Also, I recognize that I may need another breaker panel, if my current one won't support the routing I've laid out.

So far, the bottom diagram looks the best, if I can figure out how to connect the 12 volt half of the element to a thermostat.

Regards,
Brad
 
#22 ·
The 12/120 unit is 2 separate heating elements with their own connections in the same screw in housing.
The wiring in the last diagram makes sense but doesn't have the breakers shown as Brian said. The way I would wire it is shorepower inlet to main AC panel, output from one of the breakers on that panel to the inverter/charger and then out to a sub panel that has outlets on it which is probably all that is desired to run with the inverter. The water heater (120 volt element) is run from the main panel before the inverter. The 12 volt element is run from the dump load controller. The only question is the thermostat on the 12 volt element. And if the batteries are charged and the water reaches temp in the heater what happens to the dump load then?
 
#23 ·
We had this setup for years, and it worked quite well. There isn't a way for the 12v to shut off when the water gets hot, but then I never saw our high output wind gen create that much power to heat the water. It takes a lot of power to heat water electrically.

If our batteries were at 100% and we had very hot water, then I could always shut off the wind gen. The only time away from shore that this happened was when we were motoring, but the engine also heated the water and I don't think Brad has that.
 
#27 ·
Brian, you're right, there isn't, and that's exactly what I was getting at. The 110 V outlets shown in Brad's diagrams are wrong because here's how the Freedom I/C works:

The Freedom takes the place of 120V shorepower when you are away from shorepower for the 120V loads. So, the shorepower comes into the boat, but instead of going to the AC main breaker, it first goes to the Freedom. The Freedom has an internal switch that determines if shorepower is present. If it is, it passes it through to the AC main breaker. If not, then either the inverter is energized by the Link 2000 or the switch on the Freedom. In no case can both sources of AC power (i.e., shorepower AND inverter power) be ON at the same time.

The AC wiring is: shorepower to boat inlet, to Freedom, to AC main breaker, then to the AC loads, whatever they may be.

Either the inverter OR the shorepower is the source of AC into the AC main breaker.

This may simply be a misunderstanding on how the Freedom works for Brad, or indeed his boat may actually be wired this way, in which case the 120V outlets wouldn't work off the inverter as drawn.

Brad, if I understand you correctly, you said: "When we are off the boat (and typically 100 miles away) is when the other dump load will be needed." I don't get it. Why would you want to heat hot water when you're not there? And if so, and you find that elusive 12V thermostat, what happens if it craps out when you're not there?

I really think you're over-thinking a simple boat management issue.

Why not just let the windmill charge the batteries and turn on and off based on standard wind machine technology? And consider only using a simple DC system I/O switch for the 12V element of your hot water heater. You say you're afraid your mate will forget to turn it off. If you run it from your main DC panel, don't you already turn your 1-2-B switch off when you leave the boat (and have the crew trained to do so all the time)?

I'm just having trouble understanding the basic design criteria for what I consider to be an unnecessary complication to a simple system.

But if you can find a way to make it work, I'm all ears.:)
 
#28 · (Edited)
Stu
Or the power from shorepower to main AC panel, output from 30 amp breaker to Freedom and then out to a sub panel with only the loads that are desired to run from the inverter. This way there is no chance of overloading the inverter and things like AC water heaters and room heaters are used on shorepower only.
 

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#29 ·
Brian, good point. Still, Brad's original drawing is incorrect based on that reference diagram, since the 110V outlets he shows come off the incoming AC wiring, unless, again, he's really had it wired that way. That's all.
 
#30 · (Edited)
Good discussion.

I don't see that in my drawing. The 110v outlets come only off the inverter/charger.

(Circuit breakers were left out of the diagram to keep help discuss the overall design.)

Except for the original picture (which Sailingdog pointed out had a flaw in it, and which I modified accordingly in later pictures) the other pictures are very viable alternatives.

I intend to connect 2 things to shore power: 1) Inverter/Charger and 2) the water heater 110v element. I expect to have everything protected by circuit breakers.

Regards,
Brad
 
#32 ·
Brad
If wiring the Freedom to part of the AC system (110 volt outlets) instead of the entire AC system the route should be:

Shorepower inlet - main breaker panel - out to Freedom from a 30 amp breaker - to a sub panel with breakers for loads it will provide power for.
 

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#33 · (Edited)
Thanks mitiempo. A couple thoughts/options:

Option 1) I could do that. Doing that means next time I'm on the boat, looking at the back side of the AC breakers to see if they are on a common bus, in which case I would need another panel. If there are separate wires going to each breaker (no common bus) then I'll be able to easily wire it like you say with the existing physical panel.

There will only be one output from the I/C and that will be the outlets. So I could take the breaker for the existing shore power charger and connect the Freedom I/C there. Then I'll put a subpanel onto the output of the I/C to attach the outlets to. Right now we have only 1 breaker for the outlets, so the subpanel could have just that one breaker.

Option 2) Not having a sub panel. I had that lingering thought that the I/C has an output breaker already. And since I'm only connecting to one thing (the string of outlets), why do I need another breaker? I did a little research and looked at the Freedom 25 Owners Manual and saw "Installation Option 4"



What do you think of going exactly as described in this picture? It would sure make installation a lot easier.

Regards,
Brad
 
#34 ·
Brad
The AC input to the Freedom should be from a 30 amp breaker. I would think your breakers are only 15 amp, which is common.

If your existing panel doesn't have both hot and neutral common buses that would work after changing a smaller breaker to 30 amp.

The Freedom 25 manual I have shows external breakers on all outputs. It doesn't mention internal breakers. The inverter in your diagram is not a Freedom 25, but a smaller inverter (20D).

For the small cost involved I would certainly use breakers on the output.
 
#35 ·
Brad—

I have a Freedom Inverter/charger on my boat and it is wired similar to that drawing with the exception that the output of the Inverter portion goes to a "inverter" panel that has a circuit breaker and feeds the 110 VAC outlets similarly to the way the main SHOREPOWER panel is setup. I only have one output from the inverter though, not the two shown in your diagram.
 
#36 · (Edited)
I think one of the 120v outputs may simply be a pass through and not powered by the inverter. Not sure I need 2 anyway. I found the Freedom 20 manual online (at xantrex.com) but not the full Freedom 25 manual. The Freedom 25 manual that I have shows the connection diagrams but not the full manual like the Freedom 20 manual.

Here's a shot of the front of the unit. The breakers are 30 amps.

Regards,
Brad

 
#39 ·
That should be in a museum!:D

It is older than any I have played with and it does indeed have breakers. However breakers allow more flexibility. They would allow you to shut the output to the 110 volt outlets while keeping the charger on.
Brian, those are only reset breakers, they're always on.

Brad, is that the unit you actually have? I'm confused by your mention of the Freedom 20 and 25. If that's the one you have, I think the Xantrex site has discontinued model information. If it was my equipment, I'd find that particular manual. The older models came with two manuals: one for the basics and another one with all different wiring diagrams.

My model is circa 1998, and I'd be glad to find the second manual if you need it for more wiring diagrams. Yours looks even older than mine, 'cuz the dark gray was replaced with the newer lighter gray way back when.

What is it that you actually have?
 
#38 · (Edited)
Brad, I agree with Brian about the breakers. Perhaps it would do well for you to redo your (simplistic) wiring diagram to reflect your last post with the Freedom wiring so you can get it straight as to what your plans are.

I still, being the engineer that I am, have trouble understanding why you want to run your wind turbine when you're not on board. To me that's the key question.

While there are bunches of ways to wire the Freedom, the simplest way is run the AC to the Freedom and then to your main AC breaker, but that's my way, and maybe not yours, since with the Freedom diagram you just provided, you can run the heater "around" the inverter function.

Your other challenge now is: How do you "run" the inverter function on the Freedom? In "ye olden days" there were only three ways to do it: 1) use the inverter switch on the Freedom; 2) use a Freedom remote control; 3) use a Link 1000 or 2000. Inasmuch as it is my understanding that they don't make Links anymore (you may be able to find one on eBay) how do you plan to do that? If you can find a Link, they are great tools. ONLY the 1000 and 2000 will run a Freedom charger - that should be in the manual. The Link 10 and 20 and the newer ones will NOT. If you can find one, don't worry about the parasitic drain, it's less than 0.1A, so you'd have to be away from the boat a loooong time for it to matter. The backlight level can be reduced or even turned off very easily with the Function features.

Also, the equalizing charger function could only be used with 2 and 3, unless the newer Freedoms can do that without a remote controller. If you have wet cell battery banks, you'll need that.

I haven't looked at the new unit manuals, and may do so later today, if indeed that's what you have, see my next post.

U wrote: When the boat is in a slip in the fall, I leave the boat plugged in to shore power. I don't turn the circuit breakers off when I'm not on the boat, even if I'll be gone for weeks at a time. Is it standard practice to do so? Reason I ask is that the 120v thermostat could similarly crap out as easily as the 12v one.

Absolutely turn it off. Why risk a fire? And NEVER depend on thermostat to turn the hhw off. As I said earlier, you only need to turn the heater on for half an hour to get hot water, then the breaker to the heater should be OFF.

Again, all the best of luck with your project, we're always here to keep pickin' away at it!:)
 
#42 · (Edited)
Brad, I agree with Brian about the breakers. Perhaps it would do well for you to redo your (simplistic) wiring diagram to reflect your last post with the Freedom wiring so you can get it straight as to what your plans are.
How does this look. I took out the 12v to the hotwater heater -- that will be a separate 12 volt circuit if/when I get the special 120v/12v dual element.



I still, being the engineer that I am, have trouble understanding why you want to run your wind turbine when you're not on board. To me that's the key question.
We need the wind generator to charge the battery from the six of us using electricity the evening before -- mostly lights, microwave, TV, DVD player, computer, and long range Internet. we spend the summer without shore power for months at a time.

While there are bunches of ways to wire the Freedom, the simplest way is run the AC to the Freedom and then to your main AC breaker, but that's my way, and maybe not yours, since with the Freedom diagram you just provided, you can run the heater "around" the inverter function.

Your other challenge now is: How do you "run" the inverter function on the Freedom? In "ye olden days" there were only three ways to do it: 1) use the inverter switch on the Freedom; 2) use a Freedom remote control; 3) use a Link 1000 or 2000. Inasmuch as it is my understanding that they don't make Links anymore (you may be able to find one on eBay) how do you plan to do that? If you can find a Link, they are great tools. ONLY the 1000 and 2000 will run a Freedom charger - that should be in the manual. The Link 10 and 20 and the newer ones will NOT. If you can find one, don't worry about the parasitic drain, it's less than 0.1A, so you'd have to be away from the boat a loooong time for it to matter. The backlight level can be reduced or even turned off very easily with the Function features.

Also, the equalizing charger function could only be used with 2 and 3, unless the newer Freedoms can do that without a remote controller. If you have wet cell battery banks, you'll need that.
I have Gel cells, if I recall correctly, they don't need to be equalized. I'll keep an eye out for the Link 1000 and Link 2000 on eBay. Good tip.

I haven't looked at the new unit manuals, and may do so later today, if indeed that's what you have, see my next post.
I have the one pictured.

U wrote: When the boat is in a slip in the fall, I leave the boat plugged in to shore power. I don't turn the circuit breakers off when I'm not on the boat, even if I'll be gone for weeks at a time. Is it standard practice to do so? Reason I ask is that the 120v thermostat could similarly crap out as easily as the 12v one.

Absolutely turn it off. Why risk a fire? And NEVER depend on thermostat to turn the hhw off. As I said earlier, you only need to turn the heater on for half an hour to get hot water, then the breaker to the heater should be OFF.

Again, all the best of luck with your project, we're always here to keep pickin' away at it!:)
Thanks!
 
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