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Perko 4-way switch

7K views 39 replies 9 participants last post by  Maine Sail 
#1 · (Edited)
I know we have discussed these things at some length but I'm not about to go searching for what I need so let's talk about it.

I have had for some time a lot of difficulty starting my engine off the emergency bank. I have now systematically replaced everything except this Perko OFF-1-ALL-2 switch. Still the engine won't start and the solenoid just goes click-click-click.

So I figure the switch must be dodgy. This morning I pulled it out and discovered that stripping it for inspection is pretty much a one-way street. So I checked the resistance across the poles, I connected it to a battery and checked voltage drop and saw nothing significant but then I re-installed it and started doing what I probably should have done in the beginning. Please read the following.

I have a Xantrex Link 20 that allows me to check two different banks.

When I had everything connected, I started the engine with the battery switch set to position 1. The Xantrex reported about 25 amps of charge going into battery bank 1 and nix into battery bank 2. This I would have expected.

Then I switched the switch to ALL and the Xantrex reported the same 26 amps into bank 1 and 36 amps into bank 2. This seemed about right.

Then I switched to Position 2 and the Xantrex reported nothing on bank 1 (expected) and nothing on bank 2.

This must mean that the switch is stopping current flowing to bank 2 unless the bridge between bank1 and bank 2 is made (ALL position), ergo the switched is knackered. So why am I getting readings going the other way?

I have so many things to spend money on I don't really want to waste it on an unnecessary switch but it looks like it will be a necessary switch.

Waddayathink?
 
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#2 · (Edited)
It would depend what post the alternator output is connected to. Generally if the charge current from the alternator is going through the master switch it would be wired to the common and pass through to whichever battery was selected, 1,2, or both.

But if the alternator output was on post 1 it would charge as you have posted. In position 1 it would charge bank 1. In the both position, which parallels the banks, it would charge both banks. And in position 2 there would be no charge current getting through.

It could also be damaging to the alternator in position 2 wired this way.

In my opinion, and that of many others the charge current should never go through the switch. My favored system is with the alternator output, as well as AC charger, solar, and wind gen outputs going to the house bank directly, with the start (emergency) battery being taken care of with an ACR, Echo Charge, or Duo Charge automatically. Then the switch becomes for use only, charging of both banks not needing any user input.
 
#3 ·
FWIW, although our alternator charges through a Perko switch, I do agree with Brian - but to address this issue for a moment:

I know we have discussed these things at some length but I'm not about to go searching for what I need so let's talk about it.

I have had for some time a lot of difficulty starting my engine off the emergency bank. I have now systematically replaced everything except this Perko OFF-1-ALL-2 switch. Still the engine won't start and the solenoid just goes click-click-click.
Remembering that the difference between click-click-click and vroom can be as simple as moisture under a connection post - how's your earthing (negative)?

Many people say they've replaced everything and then forget about the return path back to the battery... Just putting it out there.. Mind you, corrosion of the switch points could cause the same problem. ;)
 
#4 ·
Hartley

If there was a ground problem it wouldn't charge both banks when in the both position. Ground doesn't change as the switch only controls positive.

Could be the switch but I think that would be rare. These switches have pretty large contacts. But a new switch is not expensive.
 
#7 ·
Hartley

If there was a ground problem it wouldn't charge both banks when in the both position. Ground doesn't change as the switch only controls positive.
Good point! :eek: :)

Could be the switch but I think that would be rare. These switches have pretty large contacts. But a new switch is not expensive.
Agreed - but it doesn't take much corrosion to allow charging and not allow cranking... and ruling out the switch is pretty simple:
1. Temporarily disconnect the Bank #2 negative.
2. Move the "common" from the centre switch post to the "2" post.
3. Reconnect the negative and try to start the engine.
If it now cranks happily, you have a faulty switch.
 
#5 ·
I've seen a couple of bad battery switches on client's boats...bad enough so that you could actually measure voltage drop with a digital multimeter.

However, you could get a good meter reading and still have a bad switch. The switch could be passing enough amperage (tiny amount) for the meter readings, but not enough for any serious load...and a starter is a serious load.

Don't waste your time. Replace the switch.

IMHO,

Bill
 
#6 ·
battery

I know we have discussed these things at some length but I'm not about to go searching for what I need so let's talk about it.

I have had for some time a lot of difficulty starting my engine off the emergency bank. I have now systematically replaced everything except this Perko OFF-1-ALL-2 switch. Still the engine won't start and the solenoid just goes click-click-click.

So I figure the switch must be dodgy. This morning I pulled it out and discovered that stripping it for inspection is pretty much a one-way street. So I checked the resistance across the poles, I connected it to a battery and checked voltage drop and saw nothing significant but then I re-installed it and started doing what I probably should have done in the beginning. Please read the following.

I have a Xantrex Link 20 that allows me to check two different banks.

When I had everything connected, I started the engine with the battery switch set to position 1. The Xantrex reported about 25 amps of charge going into battery bank 1 and nix into battery bank 2. This I would have expected.

Then I switched the switch to ALL and the Xantrex reported the same 26 amps into bank 1 and 36 amps into bank 2. This seemed about right.

Then I switched to Position 2 and the Xantrex reported nothing on bank 1 (expected) and nothing on bank 2.

WTF. This must mean that the switch is stopping current flowing to bank 2 unless the bridge between bank1 and bank 2 is made (ALL position), ergo the switched is knackered. So why am I getting readings going the other way?

I have so many things to spend money on I don't really want to waste it on an unnecessary switch but it looks like it will be a necessary switch.

Waddayathink?
if you got two batteries or banks 1 engine 1 domestic, remove the negatives from 1 battery/bank and try in switch position 1 then 2 then all. then off.
Replace the negative you removed then remove the second battery/bank negative and try again 1,2,all off.
This should help you single out the fault battery or switch.

If you got a solenoid that is going click click, sounds really it could be stuck in the flywheel starter ring. Solution big spanner on crankshaft in reverse to engine revolution make sure gearbox disengaged and ignition is off.
Alternatively check the battery cable connections clean, then WD40. do not uses Vaseline/petroleum jelly unless its going into storage.
 
#8 ·
Reply #19 here addresses your issue: Engine Starting issue

This is page 2 of a long discussion that seems to parallel your problem.

It's sure easy for us to spend your $$ :D:D:D, but if it's the switch, what else ya gonna do?

Good luck.

Just for grins & giggles: What I would have said in an introduction to your topic, instead of: "...but I'm not about to go searching for what I need so let's talk about it." would have been: "I've searched all over and can't find something specifically that addresses my issue and would appreciate your help." Well, maybe that's what you tried to say, and lots of us enjoy helping out, but I had a guy who once actually wrote: "It's easier for me to ask and have you guys do the work for me." I trust that wasn't your intention.

Anyway, while we're at it, I agree with Brian, take the AO off your switch. You don't even need to buy anything else, 'cuz if you plug in with a multiple output shorepower charger, your reserve bank will always be charged, and, if necessary, you can always use "B" when running the alternator! Simple change in wiring makes a great big difference: get on the boat, switch to house bank and leave it there.

Maine Sail, Brian and I have been promoting this for some time, but I digress, 'cuz it wasn't really your question.

Ah, thread drift is almost as much fun as doing someone else's research.

With all in good humor, and good luck with your troubleshooting...

...really...

Stu
 
#9 ·
Sorry don't want to answer individual posts but thanks to all those who a) read my post and b) answered with constructive advice.

I don't have echo chargers or duo chargers or any such device. I have it wired as Brian describes. Whenever the engine is running the switch goes to ALL to charge both banks. That's how I have done it for 30 years or more. However, with that bank not giving up any power (my problem in a nutshell) the charge level always looks good on the Xantrex even though it is also not being charged. It looks normal. But it doesn't work.

Given the above, if the switch is turned to bank No. 2 and the Xantrex doesn't register the charge then I guess it's time to replace the switch.

And just to ensure that folks don't think I'm ungrateful for advice:

- yes I have cleaned all the terminals
- yes I have replaced the earth cable to the ground bus
- yes I have replaced the positive cable to the switch
- yes I have replaced both the batteries
- yes I have replaced all the battery post connectors
- yes I have checked all the connections are tight.
- no, the starter doesn't go click click click when it runs off the house bank

But I never replaced them all at the same time.

Thanks again for the help
 
#19 ·
What a dumbo

What a dumbo!!

I don't have echo chargers or duo chargers or any such device. I have it wired as Brian describes. Whenever the engine is running the switch goes to ALL to charge both banks. That's how I have done it for 30 years or more.
So I have the output from the alt connected to the house bank. And I've been doing this for 30 years. One would think after 30 years one would learn something. Jeez.

If the alt is wired to the house bank it would show a charge on Position 1 because that's the house bank.

It would show a charge on Position ALL because there is a connection in the switch to both banks.

BUT IN POSITION 2 the bloody thing is turned off. There is no connection between the house bank and the start bank in Position 2! :mad: Furkrysake!!

OF COURSE IT WILL SHOW NO CHARGE.

Thanks Brian. You fixed my non-charging problem by just making me think a little more. It's amazing how much thinking I get done at 02:00 in the morning when I can't sleep.

Now to fix the starting problem. I'll jump the connections on post 2 when I'm on the boat next. If anyone is still interested I'll post the result next week.
 
#10 ·
Glad you've got it sorted, Andre. :)

It's been an interesting discussion.. if you do find that replacing the switch fixes the problem, do let us know - since I have intermittent starting issues I'm currently dealing with (but am not as far down the track as you are) and it would be nice to know it wasn't the old Perko switch in the corner! :eek:
 
#11 ·
...since I have intermittent starting issues I'm currently dealing with (but am not as far down the track as you are) and it would be nice to know it wasn't the old Perko switch in the corner! :eek:
Many of these can be sorted out by checking the fuseholder in the wiring between the start button or switch and the starter solenoid. On our boats there is a $1.83 fuseholder cleverly tucked right under the alternator. The fuseholder tends to die a long, slow death and eventually disintegrate.

Any electrical issues that are intermittent are almost always the connections.
 
#16 ·
Hartley

If you can't get a good connection on the block make a test lead with alligator clips on each end. Mine are about 10' long and invaluable. Lets you clip to anything within their reach. Only cost a scrap of wire and a buck or 2 for the clips.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Thanks, Brian - done that (although not that long - good idea! :) ) but pretty much everything(*) on the block is painted.

Originally, I tried hooking up to the battery negative.. but of course that didn't work (doh!). In the end, the engine mounts and the 'radiator cap' overflow tube were about the best points I could get - and then finally decided... I hate working on engines. :(

[RANT] I'm only mildly amused by the thought that the reason we swapped the Hartley for this boat had nothing to do with sailing and everything to do with me hating the trailer mechanicals and the thought of them failing on the freeway at 100kmh filled me with terror... Now I have a boat permanently in the water, ready to sail, with a bloody engine to deal with instead! :eek: [/RANT]

* = excepting the bits that have rusted, despite being flooded with copious amounts of WD40 which seems to evaporate off when the engine warms up.
 
#23 ·
Stay with what you have. Why spend $$ on an echo charger when you already have a B position on the switch? The reserve bank is almost always full anyway, use a shorepower charge to top it off if need be. The Blue Seas dual circuit switch is stupid, for two reasons: it combines a bad bank with a good one, and it doesn't allow you to use limited house loads off the reserve bank if the house bank dies.
 
#25 ·
The Blue Seas dual circuit switch is stupid, for two reasons: it combines a bad bank with a good one,...
Only if you switch it to "combine," for which there would rarely be reason to do. In fact: The only time I could foresee doing this is if my starting battery was exhausted and my house bank not. In that case I'd manually disconnect my starting battery before selecting "combine," so the depleted starting battery wouldn't drag down the house bank.

... and it doesn't allow you to use limited house loads off the reserve bank if the house bank dies.
House/Reserve banks is not what that design is meant for. It's meant for House/Starting bank designs. Using the starting battery for running non-starting loads would defeat the purpose of the design.

I agree with Stu, on one thing anyway. The Blue Seas dual circuit switch makes no sense. A switch that lets you select one bank or the other is more useful. If one bank is dead, switch to the other.
Since starting batteries are rarely drawn down very much (assuming a battery and engine in good condition), the above measures should never be necessary. If your house bank is low: Start your engine and recharge it. You can be assured of being able to do so, because your starting battery is reserved for starting only.

SEMIjim
He can't fry the alternator, it is wired direct to the house bank.
Of course. Guess I wasn't thinking on that one. Duh :p

Jim
 
#24 ·
I agree with Stu, on one thing anyway. The Blue Seas dual circuit switch makes no sense. A switch that lets you select one bank or the other is more useful. If one bank is dead, switch to the other.

SEMIjim
He can't fry the alternator, it is wired direct to the house bank. He can forget to switch to both and in that case the start battery (#2) will not get a charge. That is why I would add the Echo Charge - no switching required.
 
#26 ·
SEMIJim

Why buy a more expensive switch and not use its function? The standard 1/2/both/off switch has more flexibility. If due to a dead battery you have to disconnect a cable you have installed the wrong switch.

I have worked on boats that have the Dual Circuit switch and find it illogical and inflexible.

Yes, using the starting battery for non-starting loads would defeat the purpose of the design - which is flawed. Using either bank without the other is not part of the design. But if there was a problem with the start battery - all batteries eventually die or it could be dead for some other reason - the 1/2/both switch allows starting from either bank without paralleling them. If the anchor drags and you have to start the engine quickly with a dead start battery for some reason all you have to do is select house. Not a time to be switching cables.

Designed in flexibility is important.
 
#28 ·
SEMIJim

Why buy a more expensive switch and not use its function?
Don't know what you mean by that. It's function is, when switched on, to connect the start battery to the starting system and the house battery/bank to everything else. Unlike a 1-both-2 switch: It's impossible to not "use its function" unless you wire it incorrectly.

The standard 1/2/both/off switch has more flexibility.
It's also a bigger PITA to use during normal use.

With the Dual-Circuit Plus there's no getting it wrong: You turn it on: Starting battery's connected to the starting system, house battery is connected to everything else. You will always have starting battery.

Unless, as previously conceded, it dies due to old age.

There's no messing with things like "Well, we started on both, so we need to remember to switch to 1 after we shut the engine off... or did we use 1 last time? Maybe we should switch to 2?" You remembered to do one of those, but operated long enough to drag the battery down to below starting reserves, so you switch to the other and start up. Now you have to remember to switch to both to charge the drained one, and cross your fingers in the hope the switch hasn't degraded to the point where it breaks before makes, which could fry your alternator.

If due to a dead battery you have to disconnect a cable you have installed the wrong switch.
You've chosen the one unlikely scenario, to which I admitted, and condemned the solution based on that. As compared to the equally as-likely failure modes (plural) of the off-1-both-2 switches. (One of which can be obviated by doing what Omatako's apparently done, which results in part of the boat's electrical system being energized even when the switch is off. Personally, I subscribe to POLA, the Principle Of Least Astonishment, and regard that as non-optimal.)

I have worked on boats that have the Dual Circuit switch and find it illogical and inflexible.
That's your opinion. In my mind it's eminently logical and, I feel, a superior solution--when combined with either an ACR or, better, IMO, an Echo Charge.

Jim
 
#29 · (Edited)
When wired and used correctly the venerable 1/2/BOTH/OFF switch is far more versatile and packs significantly more redundancy and safety features than does the Blue Seas Dual Circuit and can be used just as simply as an ON/OFF switch.

There are applications where one might be useful, like a powerboat that has huge engine cranking amp needs, but other than that the 1/2/BOTH/OFF, when wired correctly, and used correctly, simply as an ON/OFF switch, offers a lot more bang for the buck considering most every sailboat out there already has one that works just fine..

I wire customers boats as:

#1 = Primary Bank (primary is a good way to remember the #1)


#2 = Reserve / secondary bank
(second fiddle, secondary bank are easy ways to remember #2 is not the bank you use.)

Alt to house and add an Echo or ACR. I also add a service disconnect in the engine compartment for the direct wired alt. If they have an external regulator I will often make use of the switches AFD terminal..

They know that they simply flip to #1 when they get to the boat and flip to OFF when they leave the boat. ALL is never used unless the ACR or ECHO were to fail and bank #2 is never used in general every day boating. This makes the 1/2/BOTH/OFF switch a simple ON/OFF with lots of back up and escape routes..

I see no need to pork my customers by selling them a switch that has less features, less safety and costs more money than what they already have. I replace LOTS of batteries, they do fail, so I consider a back up bank a necessity.. The Dual Circuit REMOVES your ability to use the second bank as a true back up bank or reserve bank. There are plenty of marine electricians out there who will do this, sell you a Dual Circuit switch, I will not unless it is the right fit.

If you want a dedicated start battery with redundancy it too can be done but I still don't use a Dual Circuit for this on most sail boats. In every instance where a customer had a parallel or series/parallel bank I measure far more cranking amps off the house bank than I do off the "dedicated" starting battery. Engines like cranking amps and combined house banks, like on most sail boats over 27 feet, pack far more than a single group 24, 27 or 31 start battery..

We have three 12V batts as "house" on our own boat. It produces over 3200 cranking amps at 70F our "start battery" provides about 670 CA @ 70F...

Was just showing this to a customer on Tuesday, on his own boat. He was shocked to hear the difference in the way his motor started off the house bank compared to the "start" bank. I think "wimpy" was the term he used.;)
 
#30 ·
Maine, given the your experience vs. mine, I'm usually disinclined to disagree with you, but this would be one of those rare instances...

Alt to house and add an Echo or ACR. I also add a service disconnect in the engine compartment for the direct wired alt.
As an aside (not the main point I wished to make): Haven't you just obviated the cost advantage of the traditional switch over the DCP?

Btw: About the cost thing: A traditional Perko switch runs about $25-$35 U.S. A Blue Sea Dual Circuit Plus appears to run about $15 more, on average. Not a real budget-buster, I would think?

Anyway...

... bank #2 is never used in general every day boating.
So should you go to use it in an emergency, you've no idea whether it'll actually perform?

Still liking the separate start/house circuits, both of which whose batteries get cycled regularly.

Jim
 
#31 ·
Maine beat me to it.

The saving is usually the total price of the Dual Circuit switch as most boats already have the 1/2/all switch.

Whatever switch you have it makes more sense to run alt output to the house bank and take care of the start/aux battery with either an Echo Charge or an ACR. This eliminates the chance of someone switching to off and blowing alt diodes. It also means that whatever position any switch is in both banks will be charged. Not a PITA to use as you only have to switch to #1 and back to off when leaving the boat. Couldn't be simpler.

The aux battery should be exercised occasionally.

As far as using all of the Dual Circuit's functions, I can't think of any time I would want to combine banks.

The one unlikely scenario? Boats should be engineered electrically so you never have to rewire batteries under way - whatever the circumstances.
 
#32 ·
The aux battery should be exercised occasionally.
Maybe so, but will it be? My guess is, in most cases: No.

We have a saying in engineering: "Make something more idiot-proof, and God will build a better idiot." The point being: In any design, the more you can take dependence on humans doing it right out of the equation, the lower your failure rate. That is the point of the Blue Sea switch and ACR or Echo Charge solution: To take the human error out of the daily operational equation.

As far as using all of the Dual Circuit's functions, I can't think of any time I would want to combine banks.
For charging, in case of Echo Charge or ACR failure?

The one unlikely scenario? Boats should be engineered electrically so you never have to rewire batteries under way - whatever the circumstances.
Given proper maintenance, which your and Maine's design also requires, the unlikely scenario probably fades to a probability so low as to be effectively a non-issue.

Your and Maine's designs have their disadvantages. Mine has a different one. In any event: We're obviously neither going to change the other's mind, so I guess I'm done with this thread.

Jim
 
#34 ·
As far as knowing what the state is of the secondary (start) bank, a decent battery monitor should suffice. I have a Xantrx Link20 that monitors both banks and tells me at a glance what the state of charge is.

I also have another system connected to the secondary bank - I have a pair of wires that run from these batteries to the bow where the battery is located under the anchor winch. When the start batteries are charged, so is the anchor winch battery.

That's one of the original reasons for this thread. I thought that if there is no charge going to the start bank then there is also no charge going to the anchor winch battery. Anyway, as with SEMIjim, I think this thread has run its course for me, thanks for the ideas.
 
#36 ·
It's also a bigger PITA to use during normal use.

With the Dual-Circuit Plus there's no getting it wrong: You turn it on: Starting battery's connected to the starting system, house battery is connected to everything else. You will always have starting battery.


Unless, as previously conceded, it dies due to old age.


There's no messing with things like "Well, we started on both, so we need to remember to switch to 1 after we shut the engine off... or did we use 1 last time? Maybe we should switch to 2?" You remembered to do one of those, but operated long enough to drag the battery down to below starting reserves, so you switch to the other and start up. Now you have to remember to switch to both to charge the drained one, and cross your fingers in the hope the switch hasn't degraded to the point where it breaks before makes, which could fry your alternator.


To add to Maine Sail's contribution, that's simply not the case. IF, I say IF, you have removed the alternator ouptut (AO) from the C post of the -1-2B switch, and ONLY use it to determine battery output, as Brian has described, then you simply don't go through this nonsense.

This "messing with the switch" position was back in the dark old days when the AO was put on the C post of the 1-2-B switch, and thus the switch served TWO purposes: where the charge current WENT when the engine was running, and the which battery it came FROM when the engine was off.

If you move the AO, that "issue" just goes away, and you run the system as Maine Sail and Brian and I have described.

The dual circuit switch is stupid.
 
#38 ·
Jim, sorry about that. Perhaps I feel strongly enough that situations such as what Maine Sail just described, are rather unnecessary. I also just posted a link to this discussion on our C34 message board, in my "Electrical Systems 101" topic, and noted this:

It gets into, yet again, the stupid Blue Seas dual circuit system. For those of you who have the DC switch, take heed of Maine Sail's advice: if you like what you have, and understand how it works, and its limitations, then you're just fine. Simply understand that there are different, and I believe, better ways to set up a boat electrical system.

Sorry to use that word again, just copying & pasting, and I promise that I'll stop using it here on this topic.
 
#40 · (Edited)
I too would disagree with Stu that it is "stupid" as there are boats that can benefit from such a switch I just don't personally like the lack of features and safety/redundancy that you lose by installing one on a sailboat.

And yes Blue Seas makes some of the best marine electrical stuff out there. The switch does exactly what it is intended to do and does that very, very well. I just am not a huge fan of the "intentions" without a potential customer knowing all of or the "rest of the story".

As long as a customer or potential customer knows the whole story, and they still decide it is right for them, then I'll install what ever they want. I will not simply take someones money though without giving them all of the options and pro's & cons. So far I have only had one customer bite on the DCP switch after weighing all the pros and cons and that particular installation was a decent application for that switch.

She was a center console fishing boat that did not want the fishing electronics dropping out every time they started the 300HP outboard. The boat had room for just two group 27 batts one for engine and one for house. The engine was shut down and re-started 10-30 times per fishing day with little charging time in-between. One of these batteries could not support the 300HP starting loads and electronics without shutting down the Furuno system. This type of application is very well suited for the DCP.

I am installing a $160.00 Blue Seas volt meter later this week for a customer. The owner insists he needs it and does not want a battery monitor even though my cost to him is the same.

Personally, I think he is wasting his money but he does not want to "learn" a new device so his comfort lies in what he knows/wants. I even explained that he could leave the Victron on the voltage setting and use it just the same as the Blue Seas digital volt meter but his mind was made up. Money was not the issue, personal comfort with what he wants was. He does fully understand and knows the voltage tells him little to nothing at a simple glance, and he knows this, but still wants it. The real reason behind his decision was a failed alternator that he never knew about until the batts died in a bad spot.. He simply wants to see his alternator voltage from the cockpit which is about 10 feet away. Fair enough and the Victron won't do that as the numbers are significantly smaller. He got all the options, understood them well, and still wants what he wants and that is great!

He also replaces batteries every three years and could care less. He did not even want to hear that I could to likely double his bank life because his comfort level is in replacing them every three years for "piece of mind".

Nothing is "stupid", just different, and every system has its pro's and con's.. As far as I am concerned I have not yet seen the "perfect" sailboat electrical system and don't know that it exists though I have been trying.......
 
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