Is ELCI needed if AC only runs to GFCI outlets? - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance > Electrical Systems
 Not a Member? 
  #1  
Old 09-11-2012
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 28
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
eko_eko is on a distinguished road
Is ELCI needed if AC only runs to GFCI outlets?

Short version: 30A main breaker running to two branches. Each branch powers a GFCI outlet. Can I skip the ELCI?


Long version: I'm tearing out and replacing the AC electrical system on my boat.

I have a new AC panel (Tracker model 116516) that contains a 30A dual breaker, one 15A breaker for the battery charger, and one 10A breaker run to an in-panel GFCI outlet.

If I don't wire the battery charger directly to the panel but instead connect it via a new GFCI outlet on its branch, am I sufficiently protected so that I can skip installing an expensive ELCI breaker?


The boat is a 1975 Tartan 30C

Last edited by eko_eko; 09-11-2012 at 07:41 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #2  
Old 09-11-2012
kd3pc's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Callao, VA
Posts: 1,337
Thanks: 0
Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts
Rep Power: 8
kd3pc is on a distinguished road
Re: Is ELCI needed if AC only runs to GFCI outlets?

If you want to be ABYC compliant, you need the ELCI and I would advocate the GFCI as well.

Two different devices to deal with. The ELCI has been tested to work "better" in higher load marine environments....ie it should not trip as often as the GFCIs currently may do, especially on loaded, unbalanced systems.

Down side is they are expensive and larger devices to install, although some manufacturers are finally getting some quite small and boat power friendly. See Hubble.

Your boat, your decision...you may speak with your insurance company for further thoughts and actual events that may have lead to the approval by ABYC
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #3  
Old 09-11-2012
Maine Sail's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maine Coast
Posts: 5,338
Thanks: 11
Thanked 120 Times in 88 Posts
Rep Power: 15
Maine Sail is just really nice Maine Sail is just really nice Maine Sail is just really nice Maine Sail is just really nice
Re: Is ELCI needed if AC only runs to GFCI outlets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eko_eko View Post
Short version: 30A main breaker running to two branches. Each branch powers a GFCI outlet. Can I skip the ELCI?


Long version: I'm tearing out and replacing the AC electrical system on my boat.

I have a new AC panel (Tracker model 116516) that contains a 30A dual breaker, one 15A breaker for the battery charger, and one 10A breaker run to an in-panel GFCI outlet.

If I don't wire the battery charger directly to the panel but instead connect it via a new GFCI outlet on its branch, am I sufficiently protected so that I can skip installing an expensive ELCI breaker?
You can't run 15A outlets, even if GFCI directly off a main breaker. You need a main breaker then sub breakers for each branch. However you are going to be running the GFCI off the sub breaker and plugging the charger into it which is fine. The requirement for ELCI's has once again been extended while the manufacturers work out some details, and currently no requirement for the ELCI.. You can always add one at a later date....

A GFCI won't negate the need for an ELCI once the standard is in effect and GFCI's will still be needed in galley, head, engine spaces and weather deck locations on top of the ELCI.
__________________
______
-Maine Sail / CS-36T


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.




© Images In Posts Property of Compass Marine Inc.


Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #4  
Old 09-11-2012
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 28
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
eko_eko is on a distinguished road
Re: Is ELCI needed if AC only runs to GFCI outlets?

This is the setup I was trying to describe.

Code:
[a: 30A Shore Power] ------------\
                                 |
                                 |
                     [b: 30A Double Pole Breaker]
                                 |
                           /-----+---------\
                          /                 \
                          |                 |
                          |                 |
                          |                 |
                          |                 |
                 [c: 15A Breaker]     [f: 10A Breaker]
                          |                 |
                          |                 |
                          |                 |
                          |        [g: GFCI outlet on panel]
                          |
                          |
              [d: GFCI outlet in locker]
                          |
                          |
                 [e: Battery Charger]
Would adding an ELCI breaker between (a) and (b) -- or replacing (b) with an ELCI breaker -- actually make things safer in this configuration?

As I see it, the places where a ground fault are likely to occur are in (e) and things plugged into (g). Each of which come right after a 5ma RCD.

What would a 30ma RCD between (a) and (b) be protecting me from?

I could see the value in a more complex system containing enough branches to cumulatively exceed 30ma residual current without tripping any individual 5ma GCFI outlet or with any non-GCFI branches.

This is a legitimate question, I'm not trying to be difficult.
__________________
1975 Tartan 30 Competition Rig

Last edited by eko_eko; 09-11-2012 at 09:05 AM. Reason: clarification
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #5  
Old 11-17-2012
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 6
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
ns22simple is on a distinguished road
Re: Is ELCI needed if AC only runs to GFCI outlets?

Where did you obtain the Tracker 116516 panel?
It looks like a compact way of adding shorepower to a small boat.

Denis
NS22 Simple
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #6  
Old 11-17-2012
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 28
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
eko_eko is on a distinguished road
Re: Is ELCI needed if AC only runs to GFCI outlets?

I found mine on either Boat Parts and Marine Supplies - Great Lakes Skipper or their ebay store. I don't recall. The products are the same, but the prices vary.
__________________
1975 Tartan 30 Competition Rig
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Adding AC outlets to my boat? evansprater Cruising & Liveaboard Forum 17 09-09-2012 11:43 AM
Water heater popping GFCI jetdrvr393 Gear & Maintenance 5 09-06-2011 03:57 PM
12V DC two pin outlets bobdugan Pacific Seacraft 9 06-01-2011 06:56 PM
GFCI Outlets brokesailor Gear & Maintenance 2 04-09-2011 04:52 PM
GFCI / Galvanic Isolator Problem thekeip Gear & Maintenance 10 01-09-2008 06:57 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:57 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.