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  #21  
Old 12-19-2012
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Re: Is this pro wiring?

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Originally Posted by L124C View Post
Not really. I certainly know that diesel motors are expensive and what motivates people to cut corners. However I assumed that if a factory authorized shop installed the motor (as the seller claims)
A "factory authorized shop" in the marine business often refers to a part time mechanic with a truck that runs .... most of the time
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  #22  
Old 12-19-2012
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Re: Is this pro wiring?

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Originally Posted by L124C View Post
You may be right. But if I was paying for the installation, I would take one look at the wiring and ask "Did you actually expect to get paid for this? Try again!" Kind of speaks to the seller's apparent disregard for the boat, which is the main reason I'm on the fence.
So, you don't even think this is a Beta Panel (had a A-4 previously)? Here is a picture of the other side and a shot of the main panel, most of which I don't have a problem with, though I would certainly identify everything. Once again... gotta LOVE the Access!
Are we looking at the same thing here...?

In the second shot (main panal back) your looking at 20-30 year old wireing, crimp connected on to a coroded metal strip with no insulation and a couple "newer" wires ran in and added on....

And for the most part your "OK" with that...?

In the first shot I think we're looking at new gauge backs with a factory made (probably robot) multi lead wire harness (large black wire) with factory "quick connects" to make your repower "plug and play" .... that's why it's not all "L" bent and labled...

The open access to the backs are also a 20-30 year old design issue and not part of the current install...
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Last edited by Squidd; 12-19-2012 at 07:43 PM.
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Old 12-19-2012
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Re: Is this pro wiring?





On all my old boats EVEN the second J24 on which i fail to understand how you can hack up 5 switches ?

I just give up and make a pile in the front yard as its faster








And bit by bit put something back in that works without worry




When you have to pull 6000' of wire into one these things you really want to ID it and try and keep it a bit neat

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  #24  
Old 12-19-2012
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Re: Is this pro wiring?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squidd View Post
Are we looking at the same thing here...?

In the second shot (main panal back) your looking at 20-30 year old wireing, crimp connected on to a coroded metal strip with no insulation and a couple "newer" wires ran in and added on....

And for the most part your "OK" with that...?

In the first shot I think we're looking at new gauge backs with a factory made (probably robot) multi lead wire harness (large black wire) with factory "quick connects" to make your repower "plug and play" .... that's why it's not all "L" bent and labled...

The open access to the backs are also a 20-30 year old design issue and not part of the current install...
Right, after a closer look there is some green growing on the ground side terminal. Kind of hard to tell from the photo, but the basics may be able to be
re-furbished, assuming the wire, point to point, is sound.

An alternative, maybe not much more time consuming, would be to use the old wiring as pull wires and pull all new wire with proper terminal fittings,
maybe even a new breaker equipped panel. A bit of a job but well worth it in the end. Or, "if it works, it works", just leave it and pray.

Paul T
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  #25  
Old 12-20-2012
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Re: Is this pro wiring?

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Originally Posted by eherlihy View Post
"Professional" means that someone got paid to do the installation. It does not mean that they did it right.
I beg to differ. I'm a Carpenter, and I can take one look at a project and tell you if it was done by a pro or a handyman. I have worked with many carpenters who are "union journeyman", but are certainly not pros. Though, we both got paid. In certain areas I don't consider myself a pro. For example, cabinet making. I can certainly make cabinets for you. However, it would take me longer than someone who does it regularly, yet a lot less time than Joe handyman. You probably couldn't tell the difference between my finished product and the cabinetmaker's (unlike Joe handyman). However, I wouldn't present myself as a cabinetmaker, even if you paid me. It's simply not worth my time and your money! So, no....being a pro is not simply about being paid.

One thing I have learned from this thread is that the standards for marine factory dealers is lower than I realized, having dealt with only one shop who's standards are high. However, come to think of it, I know of a boat yard who flies several factory banners including Yanmar's and I wouldn't let that yard touch my boat!

Last edited by L124C; 12-20-2012 at 02:55 PM.
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  #26  
Old 12-20-2012
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Re: Is this pro wiring?

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Originally Posted by L124C View Post
I beg to differ. I'm a Carpenter, and I can take one look at a project and tell you if it was done by a pro or a handyman. I have worked with many carpenters who are "union journeyman", but are certainly not pros. Though, we both got paid. In certain areas I don't consider myself a pro. For example, cabinet making. I can certainly make cabinets for you. However, it would take me longer than someone who does it regularly, yet a lot less time than Joe handyman. You probably couldn't tell the difference between my finished product and the cabinetmaker's (unlike Joe handyman). However, I wouldn't present myself as a cabinetmaker, even if you paid me. It's simply not worth my time and your money! So, no....being a pro is not simply about being paid.

One thing I have learned from this thread is that the standards for marine factory dealers is lower than I realized, having dealt with only one shop who's standards are high. However, come to think of it, I know of a boat yard who flies several factory banners including Yanmar's and I wouldn't let that yard touch my boat!
It may not matter who did it, it is history. The question is whether you want to have it re-done properly by you or someone else?

Paul T
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  #27  
Old 01-05-2013
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Re: Is this pro wiring?

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Originally Posted by eherlihy View Post
"Professional" means that someone got paid to do the installation. It does not mean that they did it right. Usually "professionals" are paid by the job, so there is incentive to maximize revenue by taking as many jobs as time allows.

I am strictly an amature (I prefer "craftsman"). If I looked at the number of hours that it takes me to do anything on the boat (usually 3X what I planned), and what I would be willing to pay... Well, I couldn't afford me.

NONE of the visible crimps would pass my inspection. That red one is an el-cheapo butt splice. It looks like the others are too, but I cannot really see. EVERY splice that I use is heat shrink, and adhesive lined.
Depends a lot on the customer. When you have customers phoning 3-5 times a day to badger you, right down to Christmas day, and continually demanding the job be done faster and cheaper, while adding new things to the list...

We have a customer right now, who while demanding cheaper rates, and continually fighting over even a 5% over wholesale pricing on parts(to try and cover the cost of the time it took to find, purchase and get them) added an upgrade to every major system on the fly-bridge and wanted the whole thing in the same time, with no margin on the parts, and labor at cost.

The boat in question came from the factory with all untinned wire, and connectors that were the cheapest non-heatshrink type, without any labeling, on a generic wiring harness used in several models.
A lot of that factory wiring resulted in WTF moments, and since the boat was written off due to an electrical fire that spread from the engine room and burnt a lot of the interior, and a lot of the wiring, it suggests that the standards exist for a reason. The customer bought it like that, and wanted a cheap refit to the highest standards done in no time at all, it wasn't a very fun job.

Most people prefer to do a better job(I like to believe), but if harrassed long enough, will get it done faster, and cheaper, while trying to at least keep as much quality as can be salvaged. Often it's still miles ahead of factory.
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Last edited by Jgbrown; 01-05-2013 at 11:43 PM.
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  #28  
Old 01-06-2013
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Re: Is this pro wiring?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jgbrown View Post
Depends a lot on the customer. When you have customers phoning 3-5 times a day to badger you, right down to Christmas day, and continually demanding the job be done faster and cheaper, while adding new things to the list...

We have a customer right now, who while demanding cheaper rates, and continually fighting over even a 5% over wholesale pricing on parts(to try and cover the cost of the time it took to find, purchase and get them) added an upgrade to every major system on the fly-bridge and wanted the whole thing in the same time, with no margin on the parts, and labor at cost.

The boat in question came from the factory with all untinned wire, and connectors that were the cheapest non-heatshrink type, without any labeling, on a generic wiring harness used in several models.
A lot of that factory wiring resulted in WTF moments, and since the boat was written off due to an electrical fire that spread from the engine room and burnt a lot of the interior, and a lot of the wiring, it suggests that the standards exist for a reason. The customer bought it like that, and wanted a cheap refit to the highest standards done in no time at all, it wasn't a very fun job.

Most people prefer to do a better job(I like to believe), but if harrassed long enough, will get it done faster, and cheaper, while trying to at least keep as much quality as can be salvaged. Often it's still miles ahead of factory.
I was just laid off from my "real" job on Friday. So, if those customers of yours are being a PITA to you, send them my way...

BTW - I'm currently in Ft Myers.
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  #29  
Old 01-06-2013
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Re: Is this pro wiring?

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Originally Posted by dabnis View Post
It may not matter who did it, it is history. The question is whether you want to have it re-done properly by you or someone else?
Paul T
On the boat in question, the wiring would be the least of my problems. I started the thread because I had doubts about the credibility of the seller and his claim about where he had the motor installed (and several other issues). Ironically, I suspect the seller would be the PITA customer Jgbrown describes. So, maybe the installation was done at the reputable shop and they cobbled the wiring together to get rid of him. Unfortunately, that comes back on them, as I now have doubts about a shop I previously held in high regard!
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Old 01-06-2013
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Re: Is this pro wiring?

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Originally Posted by eherlihy View Post
I was just laid off from my "real" job on Friday. So, if those customers of yours are being a PITA to you, send them my way...

BTW - I'm currently in Ft Myers.

It depends, if I didn't have my real job, I couldn't have afforded to do the work, that one worked out to -2$ an hour by the end, for months of work. You sure you want them?

EDIT: not to say I'm not grateful to be working, but sometimes just having something to do isn't worth it. I'm not really a charity, though I often seem to end up being one by accident, without the tax deductions. I'd rather do good work, and get paid for it, but when I'm making less than minimum wage, or outright losing money just to stay busy...
Quote:
On the boat in question, the wiring would be the least of my problems. I started the thread because I had doubts about the credibility of the seller and his claim about where he had the motor installed (and several other issues). Ironically, I suspect the seller would be the PITA customer Jgbrown describes. So, maybe the installation was done at the reputable shop and they cobbled the wiring together to get rid of him. Unfortunately, that comes back on them, as I now have doubts about a shop I previously held in high regard!
EDIT2:
It might also be customer wired, we get that a lot, people wanting us to do the complicated parts, but they'll do the rest themselves on the cheap. It's their boat, we can only recommend encourage and suggest past a certain point.
Usually after that they'll expect it to be troubleshot and brought up to spec for free of course.


We'll never do work that won't stand up, #1, it doesn't suit either of our personalities, even cutting the corners that can be cut without harm is hard enough, but we would never do work that would compromise safety or function. The corners that might get cut when we're pushed far enough would be in terms of elegance and aesthetics more than anything. An engine that could have been painted to better than new spec with airbrushed detail work, will get a rattle can job for example. Still brand specific factory paint supplied by that company, but the end result is only 75% as nice. Still better than factory(hoses kept free of paint etc) but not perfect. Exhaust got a proper exhaust wrap, but not custom made reusable heat blankets.
The pic is before the edge of the engine bay was sanded down and repainted, you can see some of the fire damage there.





There is no excuse for cutting corners on the quality of wiring, ever. Tinned wire, correctly sized to allow for the expected power usage plus a bit extra, and good quality connectors corectly applied are required.
Perfectly organized runs, best practice labeling and paper diagrams of all wiring for later use later by the customer's next service tech require someone willing to pay for it.



Personalities and morals aside, it's also just good buisness. The worst customers are the most likely to sue. There's two in just the past 3 months who've threatened legal action, but they are the worst for constantly putting the screws to us to get it done with the cheapest parts(even better, used parts but still wanting the work warrantied as normal), forgetting to pay, or fighting for reductions in payment after the job is done. In both cases, something bad happened to the boat, but in both cases it was something we hadn't ever touched, one was a factory installed option, the other was installed by the customer. Their first action upon having an issue wasn't even to contact us to determine the nature of the issue, and see if it could be repaired or to see if we wanted to fix it, but to call the most expensive restoration companies in the area in the hopes of getting a nice little refit on everything that was damaged paid for by our insurance, and immediately after that, call us to request our insurance company's contact information, and to tell us we weren't allowed near their boats again.

They didn't even wait to find out the cause of the problems before phoning us expecting their free lunch. When told by both companies the source of the issue, they then called us back to have it fixed, asking for a reduced rate since they were such good long term customers.
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Last edited by Jgbrown; 01-06-2013 at 09:56 PM.
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