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Help choosing a new MFD and Radar needed

7K views 28 replies 10 participants last post by  Brewgyver 
#1 ·
I know there are lots of threads on this but stuff changes so fast that it needs an update. I want to replace my chart plotter and radar with an MFD / radar combo and I am, to put it mildly, confused. Any input will be gratefully received.

What I have that I plan to keep are the following:

Raymarine ST60+ instruments
Raymarine Type 100/300 Autopilot
Raymarine ST6000+ Autopilot Control Unit

What I want to get is a new radar and a new MFD for the helm. I REALLY want WIFI / iPad interaction. We ran on our iPad most of this summer and it was incredibly useful to be able to navigate from anywhere on the boat. This, and the simpler interfacing, would drive me to the Raymarine solution. BUT, what I think I would also like is broadband radar and there is no indication of a broadband radar capability on Raymarine so I have been looking for alternatives.

Simrad / Lowrance are now implementing a WIFI option with their GoFree module and they have the 3/4G radar so it looks promising but I have no idea how it will work with my Raymarine instruments. I have learned enough about this to realize that just being able to go on the same network does not necessarily mean they will understand one another. The instruments may be fine but the autopilot is less clear. There is also some question as to whether the Lowrance chart plotter is a fully functional MFD.

I'm sure there are other options with their own benefits and challenges out there so any guidance or experience would be much appreciated.

Thank you
 
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#2 ·
There really is no confusion - stick with Raymarine - the new touch hybrid e7d and up in size are wonderful units and will EASILY interface with your current set up. They are wifi enabled and can be not only viewed on android devices, but also controlled by them (i.e. you can page around and even steer the boat via an android tablet). It's also iPad compatible.
The only thing you will have to add is a ST1 to STng converter for the st60's - to MFD, and maybe a NGW-1-STNG for your NMEA 0183/older autopilot. Once you do that you'll never go back to stand alone units again.
From there it literally is plug and play.
The raymarine tech forum folks will help you with your specific needs.

Reviews on radar put Simrad as a little better than RM's - BUT - I, like you would rather have it fully functional on the network - and that means sticking with one manufacturer.

p.s. I have no association with RM.
 
#3 ·
Graham,

I read the other thread after I posted to this one.
A MFD, current generation is more than just a chart/radar/sonar display.
For example, the e7d from Raymarine also has a dozen of so datapages that can be configured to show depth, speed, engine data (rpm, temp) rudder angle, wind direction, speed (both true and apparent and vectoring) - and even a soft touch page for autopilot control.

The AIS discussion on the other thread is also germane - I have a SH 2150 VHF with AIS, it plugs into the e7d via a double connection to the NEMA ports - one highspeed for location data, one low speed for DSC data. I can call a AIS target with a touch of the screen.
Integrated electronics is really the way to go.
 
#4 ·
Hello,

First let me state that I am not an expert in this stuff, but I have been researching it for years and I do have some practical experience as well.

You are looking for a new electronics 'system' which will be comprised of a number of components. The main 'brains' of the system will be the chartplotter. That will have the display with user interface, and will contain the digital charts as well as receive the data from the other components, like water depth, wind speed, AIS, etc.

All of the various components will be connected to a network, so the information could be displayed on any number of Multi Function Display (MFD). You need to understand the difference between a MFD and a chart plotter, the MFD just displays the data, it doesn't generate or manipulate the data).

All 'modern' marine electronics use NMEA 2000 networking, which is basically ethernet. There are number of benefits of NMEA 2000, including high speed, common connectors and device interoperability, and multiple 'talkers' and 'listeners'. The older networking is NMEA 0183, which is basically RS232 serial networking. This only allows for a single talker at a time, no common connectors, and is much slower.

There are two main exceptions to device interoperability. RADAR and SONAR (for the display, not just water depth) require too much data for a standard network, so each manufacturer implements RADAR and SONAR in a different way. So think about what vendor you like and make sure to get the same brand of RADAR and SONAR. I believe that all common RADAR units made today are digital, meaning lower power, instant on, and high resolution. I'm sure there are differences between the various vendors like Raymarine, Lowrance/Simard/B&G (all one company), Garmin, etc., but I don't know what they are of if they are important to you.

Raymarine and Garmin have the ipad connectivity you are looking for, so I would start with them. Simrad does too, but not Lowrance (yet).

To use your existing Raymarine gear will require that you find a chartplotter with multiple NMEA 0183 ports (one for the autopilot control head and another for the ST60 units) or you buy a device to convert NMEA 0183 data to NMEA 2000 (Maretron, Actisense and others make them).

I guess this is long enough for now. I've got to get back to work.

Barry
 
#5 ·
All 'modern' marine electronics use NMEA 2000 networking, which is basically ethernet.
Really? Why done we use CAT 5 cables to connect everything then? Ok, I'm not trying to be rude, but NMEA 2000 is NOT the same as Ethernet. Its not even close. Each company has Ethernet interfaces but that's not NMEA 2000.

Raymarine

Seatalk - Proprietary protocol loosely based on NMEA0183
Seatalk2 - Proprietary protocol based on NMEA 2000
Seatalkng - Proprietary protocol based on ethernet.

These are just the Raymarine ones which i am familiar.
 
#6 ·
Hey,

I don't make this stuff up.

From the raymaine web site:
Raymarine SeaTalk NG Networking

NMEA 2000 / SeaTalkng

The current marine industry standard. All current Raymarine MFDs are NMEA2000 certified. The standard utilises the CAN (Control Area Network) design developed by Bosch for the automotive market but with messages/sentence appropriate for the marine industry.

A multi-talker, multi-listener approach using serial data at moderate date rates (250kbs).

Cable System

Under the NMEA standard, manufacturers can use the cable/connector design of their choice so long as it conforms to certain requirements. The topology is a robust terminated backbone/spur design.

SeaTalk ng SeaTalkng

Raymarine's proprietary cable system for use in NMEA 2000 networks. The design provides two advantages. First, the connector collars are retained on the product which allows for a smaller cable diameter making installations easier. More importantly, the cable can include a sixth wire which allows for backward compatibility with SeaTalk1 equipment. Products with SeaTalkng connectors can be used on NMEA 2000 networks that use Devicenet cabling through simple connector adaptors and conversely equipment with Devicenet connectors can be used on NMEA 2000 networks that use SeaTalkng cabling through simple connector adaptors.

Explore the networking possibilities with SeaTalkng

==
Barry
 
#9 ·
I can't believe I missed this, I'm in pretty much the same situation:
- ST60+ Instruments with repeater at nav station
- ST6000+ Autohelm with type 1 course computer and separate compass
- Small Standard Horizon chartplotter that I don't like that doesn't talk to anything else

So it's all Raymarine SeaTalk (1) now (except the plotter that isn't connected to anything else.

I want to add:
- New MFD
- Radar
- AIS

Since everything is older Raymarine, I'm tempted to stick with Raymarine, at least for the new plotter/MFD. I've been looking at the older (C90W) and newer (c95) plotters and the difference seems to come down to:
- C120W: Can keep everything as SeaTalk1, no iOS apps
- c95: No SeaTalk1 input so need converter to SeaTalkNG (might make adding radar & AIS easier?), iOS apps available

Since iOS is my day job, I've got devices hanging around that I'd like to use as a visual nav station repeater.

If I go with the c95, the install will be:
- SeaTalk Bus: All existing SeaTalk 1 components daisy-chained (instruments, course computer, repeater, existing autopilot control head)
connected to
- SeaTalk1 to SeaTalkNG connector
connected to each of
- c95 MFD
- AIS
- Radar

Has anyone used a SeaTalk to SeaTalkNG connector? I don't know how I feel about having something translate the commands between the MFD and the autopilot if I use the MFD instead of the existing autopilot control head. I have no real concerns about the instruments passing their signals through the connector to the MFD for display.

Other than the touch screen and networking multiple screens together, is there any reason I'd go with an e-series MFD instead of a c-series?

Raymarine's HD radar might fit my needs better than broadband (dodging squalls when cruising for a few years and larger range) but I wouldn't be surprised if the NMEA input on the MFD will play nicely with a 3rd party radar.

Anything I'm overlooking?
 
#10 ·
hi Christina,
Looks like we are in exactly the same place. I have a few additional observations:

1. We LOVE using the iPad on the boat and IOS WIFI integration is a must. It is definitely WAY cheaper than a repeater in the nav station. There are other options for this popping up with Navico developing GoFree but integration will be harder (I think).

2. Although the course computer will 'talk to' the MFD it is not at all clear that it will be a fully functional interface. It may just be a data feed to the MFD. I am struggling to get a clear answer on this one from Raymarine.

3. You talk about the NMEA interface between other's radar and the MFD. As I understand it this will only be able to place data FROM the MFD onto the (separate) radar display. NMEA does not carry the actual radar image so it will not be possible to display a 3rd party radar on the MFD. I might need correcting here.....

There has not been a lot of response to this thread (although some VERY useful input) so I am thinking of posting to the Panbo forum. Have you been there?

The area you are in looks like wonderful cruising. We are hoping to sail up to Newfoundland in the summer but we will not be able to go much further than that as we want to be in the Bahamas for Christmas.....
 
#11 ·
If you're headed for NFLD but don't quite make it, I'd recommend the Brad D'Or lakes in Cape Breton. But I did grow up near there so I'm pretty biased. Georgian Bay is pretty nice sailing though it'll be a few months before I can get back on the water.

Looks like you're right about the limited compatibility for the broadband radars. The Lowrance guide shows just a few Lowrance and Simrad plotters and 1 B&G plotter as options. There's a radar interface box required for the Simrad and B&G plotters. Too bad that interface box isn't more generic.

My marina's running a seminar with Raymarine in a few weeks, so I'll definitely be bugging them about whether I'll be able to get 2-way communication between the MFD & autopilot. It could be a different answer with the c95 and C90W. I'm trying to come up with my list of questions for them, like what I'll have to change if my course computer dies.

I hadn't come across the Panbo forum yet, thanks for the link!
 
#12 ·
If I was in the market today I would be giving strong consideration to the new Lowrance HDS7 Gen II Touch. Have not yet seen the GoFREE app but the unit is a very, very well thought out product.

I have installed a number of the e7D's, and they are decent units, but the Raymarine user interface is still overly complex and not very user intuitive.

Also keep in mind that Garmin will be answering the e7 and HDS Gen 2 devices this spring so you may want to wait. The new version of the 740 is supposed to be very sweet....
 
#14 ·
I have been digging into what actual functionality you get from an MFD when using a single vendor package. For Raymarine products it has been illuminating - and, unfortunately, disappointing.

Clearly the new C and E series MFD's are mainly aimed at powerboat users. The fully supported waypoint navigation is of very limited use to a sailboat. The key functions for sailing are the +10 +1 -1 -10 heading adjustments, both in compass and windvane mode. These do not appear to be available on the MFD at all. Neither, apparently, does the ability to enter and exit either compass or windvane mode and set heading. This is addressed in section 9.1 of this manual. WARNING: 25 meg download.

This is all a little strange. These functions are already available on a simple cabled remote so there is clearly a demand for remote heading adjustments. Replicating the remote's functionality on the MFD would appear to be a pretty simple task. :confused:

So they 'talk' to one another but they certainly don't appear to make good use of that fact. I'm guessing that alternative MFD's will be able to display Raymarine data as effectively as the Raymarine MFD via NMEA.

Interestingly where this leaves me is that there appears to be little functional advantage in sticking to a single vendor for instrumentation so I might be able to go with that broadband radar after all......

Please let me know if I am missing something here.

Thanks

Graham
 
#15 ·
So they 'talk' to one another but they certainly don't appear to make good use of that fact. I'm guessing that alternative MFD's will be able to display Raymarine data as effectively as the Raymarine MFD via NMEA.

Interestingly where this leaves me is that there appears to be little functional advantage in sticking to a single vendor for instrumentation so I might be able to go with that broadband radar after all......

Please let me know if I am missing something here.

Thanks

Graham
Well, if you get a simrad MFD you can do without the Autopilot control head altogether and save some $$. Or have both and have a little redundancy in case one died. So there is actually an advantage to sticking to one MFR, as long as it's Simrad :)
 
#17 ·
Graham,

The new Simrad IS40 (and the B&G, which looks like the same device) is an MFD with autopilot control, if you buy an extra little remote control.

I'm thinking of replacing my Garmin GMI 10 with the Simrad IS40, for a few reasons : bigger display, better calibration of speed and wind devices, and adjustable damping (GMI 10 appears to have none, makes it useless for wind info)
 
#20 ·
Presumably only if I replace the Raymarine autopilot.... My retirement is already getting deferred to pay for this toy so that one will have to wait.
I must say I am disappointed in Raymarine's current MFD implementation. It is really just a fancy chart plotter with additional displays rather than an MFD.
 
#21 ·
Graham
I think I see your point, you can't do the +/- course headings we all know and love from our ST60+ days with a simple key press on the e7d MFD because you don't have a SPX type auto pilot.
Not because it won't, but because your AP is outdated.
There is a solution that won't break the bank - install (for about 530 bucks) a A70 (i70) auto pilot control head.
I mean, would you not want a backup to the MFD?

My setup is a single i70, the e7d, and a70 - I can not imagine not having redundancy.
 
#24 ·
Chuckles,
I spent a good deal of time with RM at Strictly Sail last week and it was pretty illuminating. At the moment +/- heading adjustment etc. is not available on any of their MFD's regardless of the age of the autopilot. However they are still developing the software and "expect that functionality to be incorporated at some point". When it is, it should work with all autopilots regardless of age - we shall see.....

They will not implement any software that allows course correction via a wifi connected device as they (not unreasonably) see this as a safety problem if a child gets hold of the iPad down below and decides to play.

I was very impressed with the clarity of the Raymarine display compared to the alternatives. This, along with easier interfacing, was probably enough to make me give up the broadband radar and go with an all RM solution.
I might look at the i70 later but I suspect my autopilot redundancy will be a wind vane if I ever get to do serious passage making.

Graham
 
#25 ·
I am finding the whole B&G / Simrad / Lowrance differentiation a confusing mess. I think this reflects the problem Navico has with retaining market share after acquisitions.
Essentially all an MFD is is an over-priced tablet computer with some specialized connectors and a few (and decreasing number of) buttons. The only thing that differentiates them is the software. So - if we lived in a logical world - Navico would pick their best form factor, dump all the other hardware with its development and support costs, and provide function specific software. The trouble with this 'logic' is that it was established a long time ago that in products that are difficult to differentiate, the number of market fragments you control has a significant impact on your total market share, hence the ridiculously large number of artificially differentiated choices of laundry detergent from only a couple of suppliers....
So, if Navico do the sensible thing and consolidate onto a single hardware platform, they will lose market share even if it is the best thing since sliced bread.
This leaves them working hard to push the 'different' products into different markets. The efforts of the sales staff at the show to explain this were pretty half hearted. They are confused.....
It is a pity because the B&G functionality in the Lowrance form factor would be very tempting but the Zeus form factor completely sucks. It is a sea of black plastic with a little screen floating in it.
In any event, I looked at the B&G sailing software and, while it might be handy for racing it seemed over the top for cruising. Even racing, having your tactics semi-automated would seem to take some of the fun out of race strategy. Bottom line - it was not alluring enough to counter the clunky form factor.
I would love to wait another year and see if all this sorts itself out but my antique Garmin 182 cannot take current generation charts and just Southern Maine will cost me over $130 IF I can find it.
So I guess it looks like the Raymarine e9 and then try not to see next year's ads for 'the next best thing'......

Graham
 
#26 ·
After a good deal more investigation we have essentially come down to two basic options, the B&G Zeus Touch (either 7 (6.4”) or 8 depending on price) or the Raymarine e7 Hybrid touch. Our thinking is as follows:

Apparent B&G Benefits:
· Good sailing information and processing

· Broadband radar option (despite the shorter ranges this would appear to be a better choice for us)

· Intuitive display control

· Good upgrade path to much improved autopilot integration with new autopilot computer

· NMEA standard interfaces

B&G limitations:

· Dreadful online information makes it less than clear what devices it will work with and what is required for the functionality we need

· Smaller screen size for the equivilant model

· Unclear chart options (we would like to use Navionics Gold)

· Unclear GO Free integration and functionality (and needs add-on)

· Increased cost?

Apparent Raymarine Benefits:

· Theoretically easier integration (may not be real)

· Good form factor

· Good chart integration

· Fully integrated WIFI (no other gear)

Raymarine limitations:

· Proprietary interfaces

· No broadband radar option

· Less sail-friendly displays

· Dreadful autopilot integration (even with new course computer)

· Constrained upgrade path

I suspect we will go with the Zeus but I am getting both priced at the moment.

Graham
 
#27 · (Edited)
I am a very 'techy' guy, (nerd) and Raymarine's user interface is really abysmal. and drives me mental. just one example, I've never had any other device that has a 'home' button on the screen and a 'home' button with the same icon that do two different things. Just idiotic. In addition, if you try to go 'home' sometimes the damned thing just sits there and beeps at you. Awesome!

On RM systems I've actually used at sea, once you start really using them you do get used to how they want you to do it, but honeslty it's counter to every other electronic device I've ever used in my life. Most have more than one way to do something, with Ray there is usually ONE path to navigate the menus and it's usually not the one a 'normal' person would choose.

*in my opinion.*

In addition, they nickel and dime the hell out of you buying $60 or $90 proprietary interface cables and actually integrating and installing them gets annoying real fast. You can plug a B&G into a maretron or Garmin sensor and it will work. Not so with RM, you have to adapt their BS 'NG' crap to a standard NEMA 2k and as an Internet guy that also just really offends me.

I totally agree with you on Navico's insufficient information available, but in my experience they under-promise and over deliver. On a sailboat the new lower prices on Zeus make them a no-brainer.

The other benefit you didn't list is that the broadband radar has MASSIVELY less power consumption, another 'no-brainer' on a sailboat. Again, IMO, FWIW.

hth. :)
 
#28 ·
Yep,
I'm a techy type as well (underwater robotics) and the Raymarine stuff is really off-putting. Once I got past the useless web info the ops and installation manuals for the Zeus are very good and seem complete.

The power demand of the radar was a primary driver. I decided I would rather have a shorter range radar that is switched on than a long range radar on standby. Obviously there are counter arguments but I am learning fast that everything on a boat comes down to a, sometimes uncomfortable, compromise.....

Thanks for the reinforcement.

Graham

I am a very 'techy' guy, (nerd) and Raymarine's user interface is really abysmal. and drives me mental. just one example, I've never had any other device that has a 'home' button on the screen and a 'home' button with the same icon that do two different things. Just idiotic. In addition, if you try to go 'home' sometimes the damned thing just sits there and beeps at you. Awesome!

On RM systems I've actually used at sea, once you start really using them you do get used to how they want you to do it, but honeslty it's counter to every other electronic device I've ever used in my life. Most have more than one way to do something, with Ray there is usually ONE path to navigate the menus and it's usually not the one a 'normal' person would choose.

*in my opinion.*

In addition, they nickel and dime the hell out of you buying $60 or $90 proprietary interface cables and actually integrating and installing them gets annoying real fast. You can plug a B&G into a maretron or Garmin sensor and it will work. Not so with RM, you have to adapt their BS 'NG' crap to a standard NEMA 2k and as an Internet guy that also just really offends me.

I totally agree with you on Navico's insufficient information available, but in my experience they under-promise and over deliver. On a sailboat the new lower prices on Zeus make them a no-brainer.

The other benefit you didn't list is that the broadband radar has MASSIVELY less power consumption, another 'no-brainer' on a sailboat. Again, IMO, FWIW.

hth. :)
 
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