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  #11  
Old 06-10-2013
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Re: Ground Tackle for an O'day 35

Quote:
Originally Posted by eherlihy View Post


I'm putting this here for my benefit, but if it helps someone else, you're welcome.
Hey thanks! I love anchor geekery and exotica and that setup is one I don't think I've seen before.

Recently I got my chain stuck in a rocky anchorage but I thought I had stuck the anchor itself. It had me thinking about trip lines again. Normally I eschew them because the float and it's line can easily get caught in your rudder or prop as you swing around your anchor in shifting winds and currents. Then, your anchor gets tripped AND it's wrapped around your prop. I like your system though because the retrieval line can't float on the surface and foul things.

A couple of points and suggestions:

1. You could use dinghy tow line, or amsteel (which also floats) as your retrieval line and remove the necessity of the float itself. Dinghy Tow Line

2. If the "two arm winch" isn't up to the job, you can run your anchor rode directly from your bow roller to one of your halyard winches on your mast. You can use the winch as a poor-man's windlass and winch it all the way until the chain reaches the winch. In fact, if the length of chain you had before your anchor was exactly this length (approximately your "J dimension") you could use really heavy chain (like 5/8 or 3/4) and you could pull up all the rope rode by hand and just winch up the 15 feet of chain and the anchor.

3. Everything you EVER wanted to know about mixing rodes, using kellets, and their effect on shock absorption, holding power etc. can be found at this link. SERIOUS anchor geekery

4. Put a couple hooks and some bait on that trip line and when the anchor comes up you've got dinner!

MedSailor
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Last edited by MedSailor; 06-10-2013 at 11:43 PM.
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  #12  
Old 06-10-2013
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Re: Ground Tackle for an O'day 35

More kellet info (from the same link above) here:
Kellet static rode
Kellet dynamic behavior

MedSailor
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  #13  
Old 06-11-2013
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Re: Ground Tackle for an O'day 35

Ed, Could you say something about the choice of double braid vs. something stretchier. I always thought that 3 strand would be my choice for shock absorption. A quick look at Defender also shows the supply 8 plait (as well as some double braid).

Thanks.
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Old 06-12-2013
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Re: Ground Tackle for an O'day 35

As I have looked at this, my initial thought was as noted, that the extra 10' of 1/2" chain would act as a kellet if I'm (we all are) using that term correctly vs just the 5/16 chain.

With this in mind, what would be cool is if there was a online program or equal, that one could put into it different anchor rode options. Then one can compare them in some way. Lets use when the rode is off the ground due an x knot constant wind. Our options in this case.....

A. is the original mention. 33lb rocna, 25' of 5/16 chain then 10' of 1/2" chain.

B would be Craigs method. ie rocna/1/2" chain then the 5/16

C would my my mention to a degree. rocna, 5/16" chain then a 20 or so lb kellet.

All would have lets say 235' of rode/chain from the end of the anchor to the anchor pulpit. Such that all have say 7-1 scope. So option A and B would have 200' of say 5/8 3 strand, option C due to less chain would have 210' of line.

In my mind, if all three were left to just the anchor at say 38-40 knots, ie the rode is pulling straight to the anchor, no slack or droop, I would call that even. If one is at 35, the others at 40 and 45. Then in my eye, there is some difference in how the three are helping keep the anchor at a level pull!

Then for that matter, lets look at just say since we are pulling up about 70 lbs of iron with any of these three setups. Lets look at how well a 70 anchor would do with ALL line, vs say a 50 lb anchor, with 20'lbs of 5/16 or 1/2" chain, Obviously I hope, the chain length would vary between the two chain sizes to get the 20 lbs of chain wt, then the rest in line, again totaling say 235' at a scope of 7-1.

My feeling is, if someone could come up with a program that could figure out the how much holding power a given option gives us. I suppose unfortunately, some of these various and sundry disCUSSions on anchors would/might go away on forums such as this.

I did see in the links Med posted, that ALL chain does have the same final pull once fully extended as a combo rope/chain does. But the spike/peak punch of you will is much smaller in time than the line/chain. The all chain in my mind, would probably be worst on the boat etc, than the longer more fluid soft to fully loaded to soft again with the stretch of the line. TO me this would be like getting hit over and over with a hammer, ie all chain, vs being connected to a bungy per say, and the hit comes on at a slower pace. TO me, the latter would be less intrusive or hard on the boat and systems.

This solidified that for the type of anchoring, depth etc I am in, that a line/chain rode is preferred over all chain. Now comes the which and how much chain might be the best help for my anchor on my boat! Along with dealing with the issue with the 2 armed windlass!

For my lunch/race hook, I need per the rules, a total of 12lbs of setup, this includes the anchor, chain and rope. I have about 12lbs of metal, and 2-3 lbs of rope. 9lb fastset, 6' of 3/8 bbb chain and 200' fo 7/16" 3 strand. On the other hand, for the overnight setup if you will, she came with a 7.5kg TRUE bruce, ~16' of what appears to be 1/4ht chain and 250' of 9/16 or 5/8 3 strand. I was toying with bumping the chain up to 30' of 5/16HT to hopefully keep the line pull level in higher winds. Now to figure out if that truly works or not! Hence why a program somewhere to input setup, and hit enter, and get a what or how it would work etc.

My 02 on the subject, not that it is worth anything these days! I would like to know if Craig or one of the other anchor purveyors is willing to put in there 02 as to which chain/rode option would be better, best per say. The fortress rep in the past, has preferred 3' of appropriate sized chain after the anchor then the rest rode! This allows as I mentioned above, I believe option D or E, BIG anchor little chain, in this case, more surface area to literally hold you in a windy condition. Hence where aluminum if it can set, can be lighter, potentially better on the 2 armed windlass than an iron equal anchor!

Marty
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  #15  
Old 06-13-2013
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Re: Ground Tackle for an O'day 35

(Sorry for the delay. I sailed from Barrington to Cuttyhunk and back on Tuesday & Wednesday. Also SailNet has been up and down more than my mainsail lately... Due to lack of reply, it seems that Craig may be out of his depth. - pun intended)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MedSailor View Post

1. You could use dinghy tow line, or amsteel (which also floats) as your retrieval line and remove the necessity of the float itself. Dinghy Tow Line
I prefer the float, as it would give me something to grab with a boathook, if I need to untie it from the anchor line. Although, I will admit that the once red float is now white and cracked (from UV exposure). I have since filled it with poluisocyanurate foam.
Quote:
2. If the "two arm winch" isn't up to the job, you can run your anchor rode directly from your bow roller to one of your halyard winches on your mast. You can use the winch as a poor-man's windlass and winch it all the way until the chain reaches the winch. In fact, if the length of chain you had before your anchor was exactly this length (approximately your "J dimension") you could use really heavy chain (like 5/8 or 3/4) and you could pull up all the rope rode by hand and just winch up the 15 feet of chain and the anchor.
On occasion in the past, I have run the anchor rode back to a genoa winch to haul it. Not sure if it would rub against the coachroof of my current vessel.
Quote:
3. Everything you EVER wanted to know about mixing rodes, using kellets, and their effect on shock absorption, holding power etc. can be found at this link. SERIOUS anchor geekery
I'll have to check it out...
Quote:
4. Put a couple hooks and some bait on that trip line and when the anchor comes up you've got dinner!
Hopefully, better looking than the ones that I have pictured
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  #16  
Old 11-14-2013
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Re: Ground Tackle for an O'day 35

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Smith View Post
Just one note; if you do ever use the 1/2" chain, it should for optimal effect be attached to the anchor, not behind the 5/16". Heavier weight does more good closer to the anchor. (The only reason you wouldn't put a kellet directly next to the anchor is that it has a physical size and you obviously don't want it sitting on the seabed.) However you should also be aware that it really won't have much effect on ultimate holding power at all.
After considering the information presented on the link posted by MedSailor, I have come around to AGREEING with you Craig. You were right!

The point that I was overlooked is that the anchor is supposed to stay fixed in the bottom, and the boat is supposed to move, as wind and current act on it. By increasing the weight near the fixed (anchor) point, the heavier ½" chain has more leverage against the upward pull by the vessel, and therefore will be more effective at increasing the holding power of the anchor.

If I were to use this method, I would probably have to use a winch on the mast, as hauling up that much weight would likely be close to, if not over my limit.
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