Composting Toilets vs. Holding Tank - Page 8 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree28Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #71  
Old 11-15-2013
captain jack's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: frederick, md
Posts: 1,184
Thanks: 68
Thanked 38 Times in 34 Posts
Rep Power: 2
captain jack is on a distinguished road
Re: Composting Toilets vs. Holding Tank

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Human crap and wild animal crap couldn't be more different. From pharmaceuticals to additives, by comparison, our excrement is toxic.

I'm no tree hugger and I'm even more upset at the illogical marine discharge laws (meaning the prohibition of dumping in harbors makes sense, but there is no science to the 3 mile limit for what amounts to a gallon of actual waste). However, I can't deny that human waste has both bacteria and chemicals that are a larger issue than a bear crapping berries in the woods.
i'm not trying to be mean or argumentative but that's a rather nieve way of looking at the world. our toxins are not confined to us. accoring to scientists every body of water on the planet is polluted by our heavy metals and hormone mimicking chemicals. that's why pregnant women are not supposed to eat very much wild caught fish. the fish, swimming in waters that our industry and lawncare have already made toxic, are toxic and eating them will pass on those toxins. but what about your bear crap? is that so pure and clean? like us, the bear is at the top of the food chain. not only is he drinking toxic water, lke the fish and we do, but he is eating lots of those toxic fish. pretty much meaning he is toxic because the body doesn't piss and crap out the toxins it absorbs. it stores them oin the fat cells.

this is why a lawncare professional that has been in the business for 10 years has to, by law, get checked for body toxins every year. the pesticides he uses don't have a low enough LD50 number ( the rating of fatality; lower is deadlier ) to kill a person but he is storing the poisons, he absorbs at work, and he has to be tested to make sure the total toxins in his body don't reach the fatal point.

so, your bear, the bunnies hopping around him, the fish and birds....all of them are as toxic as we are and, if your crap needs to be handled by HASMAT, all their crap does too.

we love to ignore that we, humans, are a part of the system. we aren't some special god's teacher's pet that is elevated above, and separate from, the rest of the planet. we are tied to it like all of the other things that live here. our condition is mirrored in the planet and all her children.

so much false information misleading people into a false sense of security.

it's like this idea that you have to wash your hands with anti-bacterial soap every 5 min or you will die from a deadly contagion. people didn't have those cleaness standards for 99.5% of the time we have been here. the human race didn't go extinct. and, in fact, recent studies hae shown that the bacterial soap, that people just can't live without, is damaging their reproductive systems, just like a lot of the chemicals that are in your food and other consumables do.

the world isn't quite as simple and stratified as THEY would have you believe. it's all a game to make you think everything is just fine if you follow their rules but it's the end of the world if you don't.

crap is crap. like i said, Asians use human feces in their rice patties. millions of chinese can;t be wrong, can they?
BluemanSailor and bletso like this.

Last edited by captain jack; 11-15-2013 at 09:13 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
The Following User Says Thank You to captain jack For This Useful Post:
BluemanSailor (11-15-2013)
  #72  
Old 11-15-2013
MikeOReilly's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario
Posts: 1,031
Thanks: 93
Thanked 41 Times in 36 Posts
Rep Power: 5
MikeOReilly is on a distinguished road
Re: Composting Toilets vs. Holding Tank

Jack, you seem to be conflating or confusing a few facts here. Human faeces is considered toxic to humans b/c it carries pathogens which disproportionally affect humans. Same for all animals. It's the reason you don't want any animal living with their own excrement. It's also the reason developed countries spend so much resources on cleaning up our own crap.

It's just basic biology that affects all animals.
__________________
Why go fast, when you can go slow.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #73  
Old 11-15-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 129
Thanks: 5
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Rep Power: 8
tjvanginkel is on a distinguished road
Re: Composting Toilets vs. Holding Tank

To the OP,
Before you start considering the pros and cons of holding tanks vs waterless (I can't call them composting) toilets, you really need to look at the space you have available.
Waterless toilets take more room than a standard marine head and stand taller. Can you fit one with enough head room?
Holding tanks need quite a bit of space and you need a large access to install it.

We have just gone through this process as our boat had overboard discharge only.
For us a holding tank was cost prohibitive as it would have to be a custom tank and would have to be very small so not terrribly usefull either.

We ended up purchasing a C-head. It is a tight squeeze in our head and we tend to sit higher than is really comfortable (Natures head, Air head and C-head only have slight variations in dimensions). We are still working on a remedy for that. However for us it is a good solution. The C-head requires more frequent emptying of the solids than other brands but the convenience of being able to just lift out a bucket vs taking the whole unit apart works for us. We also like that both containers are inside a secondary container so that if the liquids are not emptied at appropriate intervals the spillage remains contained. We have tested this and I am very pleased to report that all spillage does indeed remain contained.....

We are currently using a C-head full time in our land based living as well and after more than 6 months have not yet gotten around to hooking up the vent as there is indeed little to no smell and it only seems to smell a bit when it is getting full.

We have previous experience with a land based waterless toilet that did not have the separator and our experience would be similar to parks Canada. It did not work very well, was extremely smelly and completely disgusting to empty. It also took up a huge amount of space....
The C-head is comparatively delightful. I can't believe I am saying that....

We have also had fruit fly infestations. We dealt with the one at home with diatomaceous earth and that so far seems to work. On the boat we hung the bucket over the side for a couple days after emptying and that seems to have taken care of them. I assume the eggs would be drowned or eaten by fish. (I realize this is not an option for liveaboards...)

Best of luck in your decision. Either way you end up getting more intimate with your poo than the normal flush and forget......

Tanya
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #74  
Old 11-15-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 8,687
Thanks: 10
Thanked 113 Times in 107 Posts
Rep Power: 6
Minnewaska will become famous soon enough Minnewaska will become famous soon enough
Re: Composting Toilets vs. Holding Tank

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain jack View Post
i'm not trying to be mean or argumentative but that's a rather nieve way......
That's rather hard to believe when parsed out, isn't it?

Anyway, look it all up instead of using your intuitive rice paddy analogy. Heavy metals, pathogens and pharmaceuticals are issues in sludge from treatment plants. None would be the same from wild animals. The sources you refer to, such as drinking from the water, are substantially diluted compared to human consumption, which consumes pure product.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #75  
Old 11-15-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 8,687
Thanks: 10
Thanked 113 Times in 107 Posts
Rep Power: 6
Minnewaska will become famous soon enough Minnewaska will become famous soon enough
Re: Composting Toilets vs. Holding Tank

Quote:
Originally Posted by mad_machine View Post
it's not illegocial.. it keeps it from washing up on the beaches. ......
It's exactly that kind of image that keeps people from looking at the math. If I were one mile offshore, how many gallons of seawater would be between us? Do you really think that a holding tank, which would not be solid after being pumped afterall, would not fully dilute?

Let's have some facts instead. A cubic foot of water contains approximately 7.5 gallons. As there are 5,280 feet in one mile, if depth averaged 20 feet, that would be 105,600 cubic feet of water or 792,000 gallons of water for every linear foot of shore out to one mile. Say your beach is one mile long? That's 4.2 billion gallons of water inside that little box. Now contemplate the entire Bay, Ocean, etc.

How many recreational boats are out there and how much will their tanks actually hold?

To be clear, seawater already contains the excrement of every living creature in it and that volume far exceeds anything you and I could possibly add. There is a point where those concentrations are harmful to the environment and that should be the standard, not the silly total prohibition from anyone at anytime.

Did you know that the 3 mile limit is strictly the limit of the Federal Law that allows a State to regulate the shoreline? It has no environmental relevance.
captain jack likes this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #76  
Old 11-15-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 8,687
Thanks: 10
Thanked 113 Times in 107 Posts
Rep Power: 6
Minnewaska will become famous soon enough Minnewaska will become famous soon enough
Re: Composting Toilets vs. Holding Tank

By the way, for those of us that have been in absolutely clear water Caribbean anchorages that have dozens of boats on moorings that are all pumping directly overboard, we know it's not washing up on shore and they're 100 feet away. It's gross to see it while being pumped over, but it dilutes and disappears within feet.

Now, I'm not advocating that practice, I'm only trying to dispel the rhetoric and hopefully encourage fact based analysis.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #77  
Old 11-15-2013
gamayun's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 433
Thanks: 14
Thanked 21 Times in 21 Posts
Rep Power: 5
gamayun is on a distinguished road
Re: Composting Toilets vs. Holding Tank

That frothy mess that "disappears" within a few feet is full of nitrogen. When the reefs, and even the sandy bottoms, are covered with a lush growth of algae, then it is causing a problem. So the solution to pollution is dilution, especially in coral reef areas that are naturally devoid of nutrients, is not the answer. However, if the pH drops enough in our oceans, maybe we'll want more raw sewage...
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

s/v Kynntana
Freedom 38
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #78  
Old 11-15-2013
casey1999's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: HI
Posts: 2,778
Thanks: 3
Thanked 16 Times in 16 Posts
Rep Power: 4
casey1999 is on a distinguished road
Re: Composting Toilets vs. Holding Tank

Can someone explain what happens with a composting head when a crew member has explosive diarrhea? Will it compost?
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #79  
Old 11-15-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 8,687
Thanks: 10
Thanked 113 Times in 107 Posts
Rep Power: 6
Minnewaska will become famous soon enough Minnewaska will become famous soon enough
Re: Composting Toilets vs. Holding Tank

Quote:
Originally Posted by gamayun View Post
That frothy mess that "disappears" within a few feet is full of nitrogen. When the reefs, and even the sandy bottoms, are covered with a lush growth of algae, then it is causing a problem. So the solution to pollution is dilution, especially in coral reef areas that are naturally devoid of nutrients, is not the answer. However, if the pH drops enough in our oceans, maybe we'll want more raw sewage...
I knew someone would go here. By dilution, I was countering the suggesting that the Baby Ruth bar in Caddyshack is going to wash up on shore. I was not suggesting it beams off the planet.

You are right, concentration is the real issue. Zero is not the necessary standard. It's not the standard in seawater without humans.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #80  
Old 11-15-2013
captain jack's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: frederick, md
Posts: 1,184
Thanks: 68
Thanked 38 Times in 34 Posts
Rep Power: 2
captain jack is on a distinguished road
Re: Composting Toilets vs. Holding Tank

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeOReilly View Post
Jack, you seem to be conflating or confusing a few facts here. Human faeces is considered toxic to humans b/c it carries pathogens which disproportionally affect humans. Same for all animals. It's the reason you don't want any animal living with their own excrement. It's also the reason developed countries spend so much resources on cleaning up our own crap.

It's just basic biology that affects all animals.
i am not confusing anything. asian countries do use human feces to fertilize the rice patties. during vietnam, GI's called the crap buckets 'honey pots'. human feces is richer in nutrients than cow feces.

dogs eat dog feces. it is a fact. it is a survival instinct inherited from their wild ancestors.

yes, developed nations expend a lot of resources dealing with human waste. this is because there are just so many of us. we are over populated, although we like to deny it. it's a matter of magnitude.

look at a landfill. landfills cover acres of ground, amounting to millions of tons of dirt, stone, and rock. each day, landfills take on thousands of tons of trash, much of it household type trash. common household trash often consists of amounts of cleaners and other household chemicals, which are toxic. it also consists of items which contain toxic material, like CFL bulbs. that amounts to thousands of tons of toxic materials every week.

now, we are discussing one man sending a relatively small amount of human feces, at various stages of decomposition, to the landfill, maybe, once every 3 months. in a given area of the country, even one that is full of sailors, only a certain number of sailors will be making such a deposit because only a certain amount will use composting heads. the total, in a three month period, of all of these people with composting heads, if you divide it down to a daily amount, wouldn't even be responsible for more than a hundred pounds of crap a day. that's in a heavy sailing area, assuming all of those with composting heads are dumping into the trash.

compare that hundred...hell, let's go all out and say it's 300 pounds of crap a day. compare that to the thousands of tons of potentially toxic trash that enters the landfill. it's completely inconsequential.

i used to do lawn care. not mowing grass but growing it. that includes pesticide application. if you have a container of super trimec weed control and you wish to use it for confront, a weed control that kills violets, legally, you have to clean all of the super T out of it first. the legal process of doing this is to thoroughly rinse the container three times. by doing that, you reduce the amount of residual super T to an inconsequential amount. my old boss used to have a saying, " the solution to pollution is dilution". the reason is, no matter how deadly a chemical is, if you dilute it enough, it becomes safe.

if i gave you a shot glass full of arsenic, and you drank it, it would most likely kill you. now, if i take that same shot glass of arsenic and mix it with 500 gallons of water, you could drink it without any issues at all.

back to my landfill discussion. a few hundred pounds of excrement, mixed in with millions of tons of dirt, filtered by that dirt and stone, is a pinch of pee in the sea. especially when you compare it to the thousands of tons of other, often toxic, trash that is being handled by the landfill.

a few pounds of poo every three months isn't going to wreck the environment or threaten human survival.

i am not saying that everyone should just crap in the street. that would be living in your own feces. i am talking about an inconsequential amount of partially decayed feces. that's not up to your assessment of living in your own feces.

if you want to worry about something toxic, worry about all the hormone mimicking chemicals that women, on the pill, pass into the sewage, every day. our sanitation technology is not capable of filtering out hormones and it is polluting the water all over the planet. it's harming human and animal reproductive development and nothing is being done about it. add to that all of the hormone mimics that enter the trash through our household supplies. that's a real issue, not a pound of poo.
bletso likes this.

Last edited by captain jack; 11-15-2013 at 07:57 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply

Tags
catalina 27 , composting toilet , head , holding tank , liveaboard


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Convert existing steel freshwater tank to blackwater holding tank? patrickstickler General Discussion (sailing related) 7 09-24-2010 07:55 PM
Composting Toilets Pendle Gear & Maintenance 15 09-22-2010 08:47 PM
Holding Tank leterip Announcements and Suggestions Box 2 12-23-2008 10:03 AM
Composting Toilets tumblebug General Discussion (sailing related) 1 02-10-2008 02:39 PM
Composting Toilets tjvanginkel Gear & Maintenance 23 09-23-2007 11:43 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:46 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012