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post #81 of 114 Old 11-15-2013
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Re: Composting Toilets vs. Holding Tank

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That's rather hard to believe when parsed out, isn't it?

Anyway, look it all up instead of using your intuitive rice paddy analogy. Heavy metals, pathogens and pharmaceuticals are issues in sludge from treatment plants. None would be the same from wild animals. The sources you refer to, such as drinking from the water, are substantially diluted compared to human consumption, which consumes pure product.
you totally missed the part about bears being a top predator and getting the toxins that it's prey animals contain, at a more concentrated level, didn't you?

ok. are you familiar with peregrin falcons? a few decades ago, they almost went extinct because DDT was making their eggshells too thin and birth rates were way down. now the falcons were not in direct contact wth the DDT. it was being used on the ground and birds and other animals were eating insects containing DDT. those animals were eaten by other animals. the animals that ate the DDT conaining animals were eaten by other animals....each layer of predation received a more concentrated dose than the layer before them. all of the animals that got it from what they ate, had it in greater concentrations than the insects that were originally exposed to it. that's how it works. the falcons were at the top of the chain. they got the biggest dose and i almost wiped them out.

the bear in your example? top of the food chain. higher concentrations of toxins.

and as for heavy metals, what do you do with your light bulbs when they stop working? if you throw them in the trash and they are CFLs you are doing much worse than dumping your crap in the trash. CFLs utilize mercury; the number one heavy metal that huans pollute the earth with.

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post #82 of 114 Old 11-15-2013
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Re: Composting Toilets vs. Holding Tank

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Yes, developed nations expend a lot of resources dealing with human waste. this is because there are just so many of us. we are over populated, although we like to deny it. it's a matter of magnitude.
Yes, the solution to pollution is dilution. That doesn't make the material in question less toxic. It just dilutes it to the point of being inconsequential. Human waste is a toxic mash (toxic to humans), but it can be diluted down to a benign concentration. This is true of any toxic substance. And yes, if only a few people dump their crap into the landfill, then it won't be a problem.

But I don't understand the point you're trying to make here. If you're within reach of a modern landfill you are also within reach of proper human sewage disposal. Why not just dump your crap into a toilet?

BTW, I own and use a composting toilet; a Nature's Head. I love it. Have no problems with it. Dump your crap into the toilet if you have to dump in an urban area. Better still, dump it out at sea, or in a remote dugout on land. I'm not sure what all the huffing and puffing is about.

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post #83 of 114 Old 11-15-2013
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Re: Composting Toilets vs. Holding Tank

it still amazes me that people get upset about not being able to dump their crap into the water.

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post #84 of 114 Old 11-15-2013
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Re: Composting Toilets vs. Holding Tank

I've been reading the post about holding tanks vs composting toilet. I've decided to go the composting route. The problem is the price, from $519 to $879 and up. These are nothing more than pretty plastic buckets with a liquid solid separator ($55 on Ebay), and a stirring stick, seat, vent fan and lid. It wouldn't take much to build one out of wood but the problem with wood is it absorbs liquids so one would want to do it with plastic. I have some solid surface counter top material that would work but that stuff is heavy. Maybe make it out of wood and use a shower pan PVC liner to keep the wood dry. PVC liner is $40 bucks at big box store. I have the wood. $55 for that separator is a bit much for an injected or vacuum formed piece of plastic.

Nor'sea 27
And the trees are all keep equal by hatchet axe and saw...RUSH
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post #85 of 114 Old 11-16-2013
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Re: Composting Toilets vs. Holding Tank

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I've been reading the post about holding tanks vs composting toilet. I've decided to go the composting route. The problem is the price, from $519 to $879 and up. These are nothing more than pretty plastic buckets with a liquid solid separator ($55 on Ebay), and a stirring stick, seat, vent fan and lid. It wouldn't take much to build one out of wood but the problem with wood is it absorbs liquids so one would want to do it with plastic. I have some solid surface counter top material that would work but that stuff is heavy. Maybe make it out of wood and use a shower pan PVC liner to keep the wood dry. PVC liner is $40 bucks at big box store. I have the wood. $55 for that separator is a bit much for an injected or vacuum formed piece of plastic.
Fiberglass is the answer - either wood covered with glass cloth and polyester or epoxy resin or a total fibeglass layup. Same way one would build a custom icebox or your boat.....keeps the liquid out very well.

Brian
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post #86 of 114 Old 11-16-2013
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Re: Composting Toilets vs. Holding Tank

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Originally Posted by miatapaul View Post
Well the toilet is only a small part of the expense. It will really depend on if you can find space for a stock size holding tank. Holding tanks are going to start at about $500(custom goes way up from there), vented loop at $100, Y valve at $50, hose is about $10 a foot(depending on set up, but figure at least 15 feet), macerator pump $200, deck fitting at $100 and figure at least $300 more in miscellaneous fittings and parts.



I don't see how you can get in a normal set up for under a grand even with your toilet, but toilets are only about $300 for a usable one. (keep in mind when yours needs to be rebuilt often easier and just as cheap to replace) You have to use quality parts, such as top of the line Trident Hose as anything else is going to stink in a few months or at least 2 years. You don't want to have to re do the hoses any time soon.
Maybe where you live but not here - Victoria B.C. Canada. We sell holding tanks from about 129 for a small (6 gallons) to much larger - 30 gallon under 300. There are about 20 or so different sizes. These are thick walled tanks designed as holding tanks though many use them for water. These prices include 3 spun in fittings in the locations the buyer chooses. Vented loops are in the 25 dollar range for 1 1/2" and less for 3/4". The hose (Premium sanitation) runs from about 8 to 11 per foot. The deck fitting is under 30 - same as a water or diesel fill with a different name on it. Y valves are not necessary. If everything goes into the tank it is less likely to turn into hard to remove cement, especially for those who only use the boat on weekends. From the tank to the deck outlet and another outlet to the seacock for overboard pumpout either with an electric macerator or a manual diaphram pump, either bought for under 150.

There is another even simpler and less expensive way if space allows - a gravity tank. The tank has to be above the waterline and behind the head is the best place. The deck pumpout fitting should be directly above the seacock but this isn't absolutely necessary - it does allow easy clearing it the seacock becomes restrictive, but people using this system rarely have this problem. Everything goes into the tank. If offshore the seacock is left open. If inshore it remains closed and you can either pumpout as normal or open the valve offshore where it is legal. You do not need a large boat for this, just some space in the correct place. It fits on my CS27 fine and I know of several Vega 27 owners with gravity tanks that they are very happy with.

Brian
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post #87 of 114 Old 11-16-2013
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Re: Composting Toilets vs. Holding Tank

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Originally Posted by MikeOReilly View Post
Yes, the solution to pollution is dilution. That doesn't make the material in question less toxic. It just dilutes it to the point of being inconsequential. Human waste is a toxic mash (toxic to humans), but it can be diluted down to a benign concentration. This is true of any toxic substance. And yes, if only a few people dump their crap into the landfill, then it won't be a problem.

But I don't understand the point you're trying to make here. If you're within reach of a modern landfill you are also within reach of proper human sewage disposal. Why not just dump your crap into a toilet?

BTW, I own and use a composting toilet; a Nature's Head. I love it. Have no problems with it. Dump your crap into the toilet if you have to dump in an urban area. Better still, dump it out at sea, or in a remote dugout on land. I'm not sure what all the huffing and puffing is about.
my point was, way back when this little side discussion began, a statement was made that alleged that any amoungt of human waste to enter the landfill was to be avoided because it would taint the water table. it was like that little pot of crap was worse than nuclear waste, or something. i had just responded to that, trying to put a little perspective back into a discussion that had taken the turn towards the chicken little factor.

by the way, thanks for the input about the nature's head. i am seriously thinking about a compsting head on this cal 27 and i am glad for all the input i can get. the world of boat bathrooms is a new one for me.
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post #88 of 114 Old 11-16-2013
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Re: Composting Toilets vs. Holding Tank

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Originally Posted by Captainmeme View Post
I've been reading the post about holding tanks vs composting toilet. I've decided to go the composting route. The problem is the price, from $519 to $879 and up. These are nothing more than pretty plastic buckets with a liquid solid separator ($55 on Ebay), and a stirring stick, seat, vent fan and lid. It wouldn't take much to build one out of wood but the problem with wood is it absorbs liquids so one would want to do it with plastic. I have some solid surface counter top material that would work but that stuff is heavy. Maybe make it out of wood and use a shower pan PVC liner to keep the wood dry. PVC liner is $40 bucks at big box store. I have the wood. $55 for that separator is a bit much for an injected or vacuum formed piece of plastic.
i was going to post asking about the price. that is a bit steep. this may sound gross, but is it possible to find used composting heads for cheaper?

i would think, with sufficient study, you could make one. pretty much anything that can be bought can be made.
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Re: Composting Toilets vs. Holding Tank

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Maybe where you live but not here - Victoria B.C. Canada. We sell holding tanks from about 129 for a small (6 gallons) to much larger - 30 gallon under 300. There are about 20 or so different sizes. These are thick walled tanks designed as holding tanks though many use them for water. These prices include 3 spun in fittings in the locations the buyer chooses. Vented loops are in the 25 dollar range for 1 1/2" and less for 3/4". The hose (Premium sanitation) runs from about 8 to 11 per foot. The deck fitting is under 30 - same as a water or diesel fill with a different name on it. Y valves are not necessary. If everything goes into the tank it is less likely to turn into hard to remove cement, especially for those who only use the boat on weekends. From the tank to the deck outlet and another outlet to the seacock for overboard pumpout either with an electric macerator or a manual diaphram pump, either bought for under 150.

There is another even simpler and less expensive way if space allows - a gravity tank. The tank has to be above the waterline and behind the head is the best place. The deck pumpout fitting should be directly above the seacock but this isn't absolutely necessary - it does allow easy clearing it the seacock becomes restrictive, but people using this system rarely have this problem. Everything goes into the tank. If offshore the seacock is left open. If inshore it remains closed and you can either pumpout as normal or open the valve offshore where it is legal. You do not need a large boat for this, just some space in the correct place. It fits on my CS27 fine and I know of several Vega 27 owners with gravity tanks that they are very happy with.
i am interested in that possibility. do you have diagrams of this system or links to such information. presently, i am really thinking of going composting, but the price may be too prohibative. maybe your option might be a more financially viable option.
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Re: Composting Toilets vs. Holding Tank

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i am interested in that possibility. do you have diagrams of this system or links to such information. presently, i am really thinking of going composting, but the price may be too prohibative. maybe your option might be a more financially viable option.
Here is one link to a gravity tank install. If you read the whole thread it gets off track because of the sink drain arrangement which I wouldn't use. A tank system totally separate from the sink is the proper way.
Bulkhead Mounted Gravity Holding Tank - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

Here is the system Peter Jacobs installed on his Albin Ballad with lots of pics - he made the tank as well. Easy to follow. Scroll down a few pics for the start and it continues on the next page - "more progress pictures" link at the bottom. Peter's previous boat, an Albin Vega also had a gravity draining holding tank and it also worked well.

........ Mostly About Boats: BOAT RESCUE, PART 16: Lots of pictures!

Brian
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Last edited by mitiempo; 11-16-2013 at 03:02 AM.
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