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How much deck over the cabin do I remove?

5K views 39 replies 13 participants last post by  YRoy 
#1 ·
I cut off one of the posts that hold the handrail on my Gramp26 since it was already cracked and I was sure let in water. It certainly did! the interior, where sits the plywood, is full of water. So apparently I need to remove a healthy portion of the top layer and replace the ply, then reseat the decking layer. This is all on top of the cabin. I intend to remove all the small posts (formed as part of the exterior) that hold the rails and make it all flat, making handrails that have the holds scooped out and install matching rails inside the cabin roof. I will post pics when I finally get to 10 posts and am cleared to.
Thanks
 
#3 ·
Pictures will help a lot.. you're there now (post count) .. probably best to use a site like Photobucket.com rather than attach pics via the SN option. Pictures will be bigger, clearer and show up full size in your post. Be sure to use the IMG CODE linking option.

Though much harder to work at, leaving the outer skin intact and trying to do the job from inside will leave a much better looking result... btw plywood is not the best option here, water easily migrates horizontally in plywood, properly installed balsa core would be better, along with some foam coring materials.
 
#5 ·
As you can see, maybe, this is the furthest astern post I removed of 5 on each side. They all are cracked do varying degrees. The screws holding the dowel hand rail all have caulking on the threads, telling me the previous owner just squirted into the screw hole and replaced the screw. Thanks for the suggestions. I really don't want to cut out big sections of roof. Right now I am in the gathering info mode. You guys are very helpful.

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#6 ·
OK these look like molded F/G pedestals that supported a dowel/tubular handrail.. not the usual style, and very difficult to replicate.. The coring looks very wet, the difficulty will be in determining how far it's extended. Have you done a 'tap test' around the area? That won't determine the dampness but will give you an idea how far any delamination has progressed.. a related issue.

Tap the deck with a plastic hammer or screwdriver handle somewhere central where no water has likely gotten to.. the hard 'tap' sound there is your control... as you tap towards the wet spots you'll hear a duller thud as you move over separated layers. You can map it out with a pencil to get an idea of the extent. Excessive delamination is a good sign of how far things have gone (at least)
 
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#7 · (Edited)
Well

It takes some time BUT you need to fully explore the options BEFORE committing to top or bottom core repair

Keep in mind no matter how wet it is right now ONCE you remove ONE skin the deck will become a floppy mess that will bend if a heavy bird lands on the boat

I favor bottom BUT it was also how the Cal 29 was built (very little inner skin)

I see your outdoors in Maine so the weather is already NOT in your favor
 
#9 ·
Certainly it's easier to manage the recore, and reskinning with gravity as your helper rather than the opposite, but then the issue is attaining a 'factory finish' so that it doesn't look like a patch job ever after. It can be done but takes some skill and patience and the right equipment. Personally I'd probably do the rough work and hire an autobody person to fill and fair, just making sure they don't use regular bondo but rather an epoxy based fairing compound.

Cutting off those pedestal means you could go to the more traditional wooden rails or SS ones like those available from WM or Garhauer once the cabin top is faired and painted.
 
#10 ·
Faster, yes that is the debate... I like working fiberglass and epoxy, and I tend to be on the fussy side when it comes to cleaning up the asthetics of a repair. Now for someone who doesn't like playing with tempermental self-hardening goo it might be better from the inside.

Mr. Chef, do you have before photos of your deck? I would love to see one.
 
#11 ·
You'll find plenty of threads online about how to sound out the deck with a rubber or plastic hammer (or two fingers) to find out how far the rot goes. Or you can drill a small 1/4" hole every 4" out, checkerboard style, until you come to dry wood. Don't be surprised if the wet area is much bigger than you expected.

Whether to cut from above or below is a whole other issue. If you cut from below, you have to hold the repair "UP" without getting too much epoxy in your hair while it dries. Then you can cover it with a new overhead. But if you cut from above, I'd suggest that's easier to rebuild since gravity is on your side, and you can apply a new non-skid material over the repaired area to hide the repairs. Which should be less work than installing a new overhead in the cabin.
 
#14 ·
You'll find plenty of threads online about how to sound out the deck with a rubber or plastic hammer (or two fingers) to find out how far the rot goes.....
I'm no expert on this subject, but my understanding is that sounding can identify delamination, but not wetness which requires the proper use of a meter. Wetness un-attended to can lead to further delamination, so a repair should deal with both.
 
#12 ·
I think I would start thinking look for seams. You might take off a much bigger piece than necessary but if there is a natural seam, perhaps along the seam of the non-skid or something like that, so you better hide the seam. Keep in mind as you do your work the value of the boat. Don't go overboard as far as cosmetics goes as you will see little increase in the value of the boat. Take lots of pictures too so you can show prospective buyers that you did it right. If you can't find a natural seam, perhaps you can make one, covering it with something like Kiwi Grip instead as it is thick and textured and will hide a multitude of sins.

If it is plywood, you may have to do the whole deck, as water tends to weep along the layers. Search some of the threads here as well I believe tommays had some good photos of his work, and his boat looks really good afterwards so he has some good advice.
 
#15 ·
I know its wet because when I cut off the pedestal, there is standing water there, right up to the surface. Despite leaving it exposed to the fine weather over the past 2 weeks, it has not dried or receeded one tenth of a fraction. Still right full!.
 
#17 ·
I'm afraid to say that would be one nasty job to try from the top. How much deck is involved will not be possible to diagnose from pics. In fact, you're unlikely to really know until you start surgery. If you remove the top deck, you'll have to accommodate the pre-formed non-skid in the repair. Impossible, IMO, to get right.

Unfortunately, I think the only option is to start removing deck from underneath until you get back to dry core. Not fun. Really not.
 
#18 ·
This looks really nasty.. hard to believe now that the entire cabintop deck isn't saturated, big job...

SF is correct, of course, that delamination (found by the tap test) is not an indication of wetness... it's possible to get dry delam, but less likely that you'd find wet without associated delamination. So there's likely some correlation between the two if things are already wet..
 
#21 ·
On my boat I've been thinking of drilling a regular grid of 1/4 inch holes (maybe from inside the cabin), 1 inch or so apart. I saw this in a West System PDF as a way of drying out the core where it is not yet rotten. Seems like a good idea, but we will see!

Maybe that would work in this case. At the very least, drilling a preliminary grid of holes maybe 4 inches apart would map out the extent of the job.

BTW, how the job is done depends on how much experience one has with fiberglass and epoxy. It can go from very hard to not that bad depending on the skills and approach used.
 
#23 ·
Yes, some people will drill holes and inject epoxy into the holes to stiffen up the deck. It is a bit of a hack, but works for some. The biggest issue (as most of these boats it is either a quick fix or it faces a battle with a chain saw) is that if it does not work you now have two pieces of fiberglass with a mixture of rotted wood, and hardened epoxy that is basically impossible to separate and clean up. I have seen some that have used a grease gun to force out the water and force in the epoxy after they screw zirk fittings into the holes.

??How many layers of fiberglass would it take to make a solid GRP cabin roof?
It would be a real PITA job but it would last a really long time.
Well in order to get enough stiffness, I think it would be a LOT and LOTS of resin, so much so as you would spend more on 2 part resin (the stuff is expensive) than the boat is likely worth, and it would be heavy enough to effect the sailing qualities in a quite negative way. There is a reason ALL quality manufactures use a core of some sort. Especially if your mast is deck stepped.
 
#26 · (Edited)
I'm not sure what the boat means to you right now, but you need to make some philosophical decisions, before you make technical decisions...

If you don't have a lot of money already invested, my advice would be to figure out the cheapest way to make some safe hand holds and go sailing! Sail, Sail, Sail! Have fun, spend more time on the water, than in the yard.

Have you sailed the boat already? If it's fun, no need to change much.

I can tell you from experience, a project that large, done right, will take more time and money than you think.

I would be tempted to go get some 1/4" thick pre-made laminate (I forget the name of the cheap G10 style product... anyone?). I would cut sets of circles out of the sheet of laminate - two sizes: one an inch or three larger than the 'posts' you are cutting out and the other about two or three inches in diameter. I would epoxy the smaller circle to the top of the larger ones and then drill a hole through the center and epoxy a nut and washer to the bottom side (use the bolt, covered in wax, to hold it together while it cures). I would dry out the area under the removed 'posts' as best I could and fill it with foam and a gorgeous amount of polyester resin and the filler of your choice. Then I would mount the circles to the deck, using epoxy, covering the holes in the deck where the posts were. Finally, I would make another wooden hand rail and bolt it to the new circular plates (paint the plates with Rustolium). Next, I would Go Sailing!

Forget about the wet core. Stop more water from getting in and sail the boat until it dies of old age, then celebrate it's life and the joy it's given you.

Or, you can spend five times what it's worth making it perfect, only to turn around and try to sell it for less than half of what you paid for it in the first place - Like I'm doing: Mirage 26 Sailboat - Complete Refit - Excellent condition! - Ontario Sailboats For Sale - Kijiji Ontario Canada.

Either way, best of luck and don't forget to sail it, as much as possible!
 
#28 ·
My approach so far is start with an inexpensive boat, and learn from there. Don't put silly amounts of money into it, because you will never get it back out!

Time is a bit different though, some of us have more of it than others....

BTW, we actually looked at the add for the Sassafras before we bought the Grampian 28. We only seriously considered boats we could afford to sink. ;)
 
#29 ·
This boat came to us so a friend could stop paying rent for it to be in a yard. It has sat for the past 6 years. I paid to get it to my house. SO far, thats the extent of cash out, except for some cleaning supplies. I am certainly of the mind to keep it simple, make sure its safe to sail, and get her launched in the spring.
I think I will take off the posts, reinforce the area so it will take a new handrail securely. I can polish her up, do some other fun little projects to make it homey and comfortable, and sail the heck out of it. Its a great opportunity to find out what I like and if I want a more 'serious' boat. Meantime, I am super pumped about having something to sail and not just paddle around in a kayak around the harbor.
And I am glad to have found this site, sharing projects. Thank you all for the advice and suggestions.
It wont be too long before I am on the ice, lookin for wind, since it will be too cold to work with epoxy or paint.
 
#30 ·
I have a used piano you can have as well. :)

Hey, if you can get a few good years out of her, great. The freeze expansion damage from that penetration is just going to get worse and worse, however. Make sure she is safe. Hopefully, there are no other load bearing attachments anywhere near the weakened deck. Also, a boat that sat for 6 years is very likely to have other needs to be safe and sailable. I hope she doesn't become a money pit, as she is probably worth less than you paid.
 
#31 ·
Mr. Chef, your 26 has the outboard engine right? If so that really helps keep costs under control. If it just cost you a few hundred bucks to get it towed to your place, that is not much of a risk, money wise. That is a good way to get into sailing if you ask me.

This winter I will map out the spots that puff up on the deck from the freezing in the plywood core. I'm thinking of marking them with green painters tape and taking photos, then removing the tape(so it doesn't look so silly). That way in the warm weather if I choose to repair something I will know how far the worst of the water damage is.

Minnewaska, no thanks, we just -gave away- a like new, barely used piano! :)
 
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