W60 - No oil pressure after oil change???

[pma_foyl]

I know this is hard to diagnose from a distance, but let me describe and see if you know of anything I might check, reset or ???

My Westerbeke 60 has been running great since rebuilding my injection pump and servicing my injectors. I just got back from a long weekend and where we ran the engine for a total of over 12 hours with no issues.

So I''m due for an oil change. I pump out about 4 - 5 quarts (I know there''s a couple more in there somewhere, but the pump was very difficult, so I figured that was good). I also changed the oil filter.

I added back in 4 quarts (1 gallon) to start. And started the engine up. The oil pressure gauge would not respond and the oil pressure alarm did not go off, even after running the engine for about 2 minutes, so I shut it down.

I checked the dipstick and the oil level has receded a bit, but still appears to be at the low end of the dip-stick range. So I added about another quart or so. Now it''s at the high range of the dip stick marks (maybe a little above the top line. I also checked the oil filter to make sure oil had reached it and filled it (which is has!).

So I crank the engine and she starts right up, no problem, she''s running smoothly, but still the oil pressure gauge and the oil pressure alarm are not responding AT ALL (ie. The pressure gauge is not moving up; usual 40psi; the pressure alarm is not turning off, as it usually does within seconds of the engine starting.). This time I let the engine run for about 3 - 5 minutes. I''m afraid to let it run too long, for fear I''m burning something up.

Any idea what might be causing this lack of oil pressure? Could it be the gauge needs to be "reset" or something? What else might cause this?? Anthing I should try, to "pressurize" the system??? Any thoughts you could give would be greatly appreciated.

[DelmarRey]

First off, you shouldn''t run the engine for more than a few seconds without oil pressure.
The two metal surfaces (crank journal & rod) hydroplane on the layer of oil that is pressurized between the two. Without oil pressure it''s metal to metal. And if it gets hot it could melt the bearings.

First Question. Where are your sending units in relation to the oil filter. If it''s down stream, then you could have a faulty filter. Try another filter and fill with as much oil as possible before installing.

(2) How did you extract the old oil? Hopefully you didn''t leave anything in the oil pan to clog up the screen to the oil pump.

(3) Was there anything else that you did to the engine besides an oil change.

You might try pouring oil down the filter connector, if possible (side mounted). Engine oil pumps are suppose to be positive displacement and should not need to be primed. If the oil dissappears quickly after pouring the oil in the filter connector that''s a sign of trouble.
If it''s vertical mounted try pumping oil up the connector with a squese bulb or ??? If it pumps in easily then that''s the sign of trouble.

One more thing. Remove your sending units and connect a fitting with a hose into a clean gallon jug. Then crank over the engine (do not start) to see if oil is shooting out . There may be some minor debris pluging the sending units.

Start with these items then come back!

FYI: Regular filters, filter from the center out and back to the engine. Coalescing filters, filter from the outside -in and are drained off through a petcock at the bottom ( fuel filters).

[pma_foyl]

Thanks DelmarRey,

I''ll explore the "faulty filter" possibility. I''m pretty sure the sending units ARE down-stream of the filter.

I extracted the oil using a terrible handpump device that uses a tube down the dipstick pipe. I did NOT remove all the oil (too difficult). I don''t think anything is plugging the pump (or there wouldn''t be any oil in the filter, would there?). But I suppose it''s possible.

For reference, the engine and all gauges/alarms were operating PERFECTLY immediately before I did the oil change. I ran the engine for 10 minutes prior, in order to warm up the oil.

If there were actually NO oil pressure, wouldn''t I hear something unusual??? For the little bit I ran the engine, it sounds fine. I''m wandering if something electrical is amiss with the gauges/senders/alarm???

[pma_foyl]

After DelmarRey suggested the Filter could be the problem, I investigated and found out why no oil was circulating: my Fram PH8A does NOT appear to be the right filter.

I had one (PH8A) on the engine when I purchased the boat, but it appears to have been "modified." The brand new PH8A that I tried to put on, has the large center hole (that goes on the nipple) and several smaller holes surrounding it. However, these small holes don''t appear to allow oil in or out; no flow threw. They have a rubber gasket inside the filter blocking the holes.

The "modified" PH8A appears to have the gasket pushed out of the way of the holes (almost looks like someone just stuck a screw driver inside and moved the rubber gasket out of the way. To make sure I didn''t have just a single defective filter, I tried another brand new one and got the exact same results. No oil flow/pressure.

So here''s my question: Has anyone ever heard of modifications like this??? It gives me the creeps.

So for now, the engine is running well with new oil, but an old filter. I''d sure like to put a new "functional" filter on at some point.

I appreciate any insight.

[DelmarRey]

Don''t know how long you''ve owned you vessel But, It could be possible that someone modified the filter to make it work and then never replaced it.
Check your Westerbeke manual or go to your local Westerbeke dealer and get their version of the filter. Then you can go to auto parts dealers to get the interchange equivalent for that filter. Maybe not! Some diesels run very high pressures and regular automotive filters won''t stand up to the stress.
The PH8A has been around for many years and don''t understand why a new one would be differant.

Here is the West''r site:
http://www.westerbeke.com/

[WHOOSH]

Paul, you''re right that this is hard to diagnose from a distance...but I think you''re second-guessing yourself. Since the engine ran just fine - and appears to be running just fine with ''no oil pressure - and this series of events began right after you had your hands (and body, no doubt) on the engine, I''m betting that you''ve accidentally dinked the sender unit.

I''ll bet I put 50 PH8A filters on our W60 before trading it out for a W71C; not one of those filters gave us a problem, and they were from every discounter, NAPA store, and other source you can imagine, even down in the islands. Presuming that your engine does not show some major hardware change on the housing that accepts the filter, my hunch is that you have a sender issue and should get out the VOM.

How''s the new berth and the new boat working out? It''s good to see you got some time out on the water with her; hope she''s pleasing you as much as you expected.

Jack

[GordMay]

Testing Pressure Guages
Excerpted from a guide posted on the Cruisers Forum: http://cruisersforum.com/index.php?referredid=79
under the thread: com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=645&highlight=gauges+in struments

...
Pressure Gauges:

1. Disconnect Dark Blue Sender Wire from Gauge, and turn power ON.
The Pressure Gauge should read ZERO Scale (Low Pressure).

2. Short the Gauge Sender Terminal to Ground.
The Gauge should deflect to FULL Scale (>High Pressure).

3. Measure Resistance from Dark Blue Sender Wire to Ground.
American Press. Sender: 240 Ohms (Zero Pressure) 33.5 Ohms (Full Pressure @ 80 psi)
European Press. Sender: 10 Ohms (Zero Press.) & 180 Ohms (Full Press. @ 150 Bar)

See 4, 5, & 6 above (but Dk. Blue Wire)
4. Disconnect Dk Blue Wire from Sender on Engine Block.

5. Test continuity of Dk. Blue Wire.
Zero Ohms from Block End to Gauge End - If not, repair or replace Wire.


6. Measure Resistance from Sender Terminal (on Block) to Ground on Block.
Should read as per (3) above - If not, replace Sender.


HTH
Gord

[pma_foyl]

Hi Jack,

I''m glad to hear from you too. And I appreciate your thoughts. That''s EXACTLY what I thought, initially. But after talking with a local (and generally knowledgeable) boat supply store guy, I'' m not so sure. You see, I had both my oil pressure alarm AND my oil gauge indicating NO pressure (the alarm would not resolve and the gauge reading 0).

Joe (Captain''s Locker guy) said that the two devices operate completely separately and via different types of sensors. So if BOTH are going off, it''s definitely a pressure issue. To test this theory, I retrieved the "old" oil filter, and put it back on. SUCCESS, the pressure goes up; engine operates perfectly. Then to see if perhaps I had ONE defective PH8A, I put another one on. DEFEAT ... I have exactly the same problem.

Like I said, upon examining the NEW filters, verses the OLD filter (which appears to work), I noticed that the gasket under the small holes appears to have been moved out of the way (to allow oil to flow through). Looks like someone stuck a screwdriver in there and just pushed the rubber out of the way.

It sounds weird to me and I''m not exactly sure about the "flow pattern" of a filter, but something appears to be amiss with the way this filter works on my W60.

The gauge and alarm do not appear to be at fault and they appear to be operating fine (with the original filter).

I''m really at a loss. The fact that I swapped back and forth between old and new filters several times and found the same issues and same resolution really makes me think this is the wrong filter ... I just don''t know what else it could be???

As for sailing, we are loving our boat, though I''m a little distraught at the required time/$$$ involved compared to the actual time sailing. You''re in a better place, being able to sail WHILE working on your boat. For me its a LOT of late nights after work, in order to get the occassional weekend away or daysail.

I know, I know ... everyone told me it''d be this way. I just didn''t FULLY understand the commitment. But it''s all good ... I''m adjusting. (But somedays I really miss the "minimal commitment" of chartering).

Hope you''re doing well and enjoying England. Where are you headed in the spring??? Tell Patricia we said "hi".

Best regards,

Paul and Karyn

[WHOOSH]

Paul, you''re right. That is *really* weird. That would suggest to me that no PH8A filter, off the shelf, is going to work (if you had two new ones, and neither worked). Next step is to visit the local W retail dealer with a new PH8A filter and the old bastardized one, and compare it to what he wants to sell you. If they are the same (my bet...), you''ve got a good question to ask him. If you bastardize a new filter (to resemble the used one), does it work?

Glad you''re suffering/enjoying the boat ownership. I do have a suggestion to reduce the first and expand the second: unplug and go cruising for a while. (yes, I know...if only things were that simple).

Jack

[flyingbear]

You may want to check out what this guy says about oil filters.

http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilters.html

His opinions only but he has cut open many brands of oil filters and compares their construction.