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  #11  
Old 12-02-2013
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Re: Poor quality stainless rigging

I wouldn't expect to purchase bolts for any critical attachment like chainplates at West Marine. McMaster Carr seems to have bolts in any category.
McMaster-Carr
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Old 12-02-2013
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Re: Poor quality stainless rigging

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
I wouldn't expect to purchase bolts for any critical attachment like chainplates at West Marine. McMaster Carr seems to have bolts in any category.
McMaster-Carr
Why would you think McMaster Carr has a better quality control program than West Marine. Do you have a written quality control program from McMaster Carr? Do you know they even have one?
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Re: Poor quality stainless rigging

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Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
Why would you think McMaster Carr has a better quality control program than West Marine. Do you have a written quality control program from McMaster Carr? Do you know they even have one?
Looking at the link I posted I think they do. West Marine just has bolts and machine screws, not graded according to strength rating like McMaster Carr.

I have not purchased from McMaster Carr but from industrial suppliers local to me.
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Re: Poor quality stainless rigging

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Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
Looking at the link I posted I think they do. West Marine just has bolts and machine screws, not graded according to strength rating like McMaster Carr.

I have not purchased from McMaster Carr but from industrial suppliers local to me.
Do you know that Stainless Steels are not graded like carbon steel? Carbon steel bolts have marks on them indicating the strength (count the number of hash marks to find coresponding strength). The strength of a carbon steel bolt is changed primarily by heat treating- the stronger the bolt, the more brittle.

Stainless on the other hand is a specific type of stainless like 304 or 316. A stainless bolt has no hash marks as it is not heat treated. The strength of the bolt is determined by type stainless only.

I have bought from McMater- for both work and personal use- they are a great company, but not sure what their bolt quality control program is.
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Re: Poor quality stainless rigging

You could always ask them.
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Re: Poor quality stainless rigging

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You could always ask them.
I just sent McMaster an e-mail with the question- will post result.

Just curious how you can recommend a company when you do not know their quality controls.
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Re: Poor quality stainless rigging

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Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
I just sent McMaster an e-mail with the question- will post result.

Just curious how you can recommend a company when you do not know their quality controls.
If you re-read my post I did not recommend McMaster Carr. I only said that they SEEM to have bolts in every category.

West Marine just bulk purchases bolts, nuts, lags and screws as we do at the marine store (Trotac in Victoria) I am employed at. While I have not seen damaged threads on any they are not graded for strength/use. Most are type 304.
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Re: Poor quality stainless rigging

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
If you re-read my post I did not recommend McMaster Carr. I only said that they SEEM to have bolts in every category.

West Marine just bulk purchases bolts, nuts, lags and screws as we do at the marine store (Trotac in Victoria) I am employed at. While I have not seen damaged threads on any they are not graded for strength/use. Most are type 304.
This is what you posted:
"I wouldn't expect to purchase bolts for any critical attachment like chainplates at West Marine. McMaster Carr seems to have bolts in any category.
McMaster-Carr "


Why would you not purchase the West Marine bolts, but purchase McMaster Carr bolts? 316 Stainless "should" be the same no matter who you buy from. Like I posted, stainless bolts do not have a strength grade- only a material grade. Stainless is not heated treated.

Second qustion: Why do marine stores even carry 304 stainless? All nautical experts I know of recommend 316 stainless only for any boat in salt water. I am sure there are many sailors who unknowingly installed 304 on ocean going boats.
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Re: Poor quality stainless rigging

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
This is what you posted:
"I wouldn't expect to purchase bolts for any critical attachment like chainplates at West Marine. McMaster Carr seems to have bolts in any category.
McMaster-Carr "


Why would you not purchase the West Marine bolts, but purchase McMaster Carr bolts? 316 Stainless "should" be the same no matter who you buy from. Like I posted, stainless bolts do not have a strength grade- only a material grade. Stainless is not heated treated.

Second qustion: Why do marine stores even carry 304 stainless? All nautical experts I know of recommend 316 stainless only for any boat in salt water. I am sure there are many sailors who unknowingly installed 304 on ocean going boats.
I did not say I would purchase from McMaster Carr. Only that they seem to have a good selection of bolts in many different grades. It makes sense to check with any supplier before buying.

The main reason I would not purchase bolts - or anything else - from West Marine is because I work at a much better store that is their competition.
In Victoria West Marine plays a poor second fiddle to the store I work at. We are the major suppliers to the commercial fishing fleet as well as supplying Coast Guard, Coast Pilots, Police, local ferry companies and local shipyards for both commercial and recreational boats and local municipalities with gear - and the Canadian Navy. We have an in house rigging dept staffed by a qualified rigger. We have in house splicing of any size line, some of which is up to 2" for commercial use and moorings.

To quote Steve D'Antonio in the latest issue of Professional Boatbuilder " Most stainless steel available to the marine industry and retail purchasers is 304. Stronger than 316, it is the least corrosion-resistant commonly available grade of marine approved stainless steel. While its corrosion resistance is considerably higher than that of ordinary steel, it is far from corrosion proof. The popularity of 304 in the marine trades is a function of cost and availability. It's less expensive than 316 and does a reasonably good job when not called upon to do something it was not designed for. As for availability, a 316 hex-head cap screw, say, is rarely stocked by common chandleries and must be special ordered from hardware suppliers. Most builders just go with the 304 cap screw on the shelf."

Most boats have 304 fastened hardware, 316 is rarely in production boats. For submerged fasteners bronze is a better choice. Or I suppose titanium could be used but it will be more expensive than 316.
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Re: Poor quality stainless rigging

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
I did not say I would purchase from McMaster Carr. Only that they seem to have a good selection of bolts in many different grades. It makes sense to check with any supplier before buying.

The main reason I would not purchase bolts - or anything else - from West Marine is because I work at a much better store that is their competition.
In Victoria West Marine plays a poor second fiddle to the store I work at. We are the major suppliers to the commercial fishing fleet as well as supplying Coast Guard, Coast Pilots, Police, local ferry companies and local shipyards for both commercial and recreational boats and local municipalities with gear - and the Canadian Navy. We have an in house rigging dept staffed by a qualified rigger. We have in house splicing of any size line, some of which is up to 2" for commercial use and moorings.

To quote Steve D'Antonio in the latest issue of Professional Boatbuilder " Most stainless steel available to the marine industry and retail purchasers is 304. Stronger than 316, it is the least corrosion-resistant commonly available grade of marine approved stainless steel. While its corrosion resistance is considerably higher than that of ordinary steel, it is far from corrosion proof. The popularity of 304 in the marine trades is a function of cost and availability. It's less expensive than 316 and does a reasonably good job when not called upon to do something it was not designed for. As for availability, a 316 hex-head cap screw, say, is rarely stocked by common chandleries and must be special ordered from hardware suppliers. Most builders just go with the 304 cap screw on the shelf."

Most boats have 304 fastened hardware, 316 is rarely in production boats. For submerged fasteners bronze is a better choice. Or I suppose titanium could be used but it will be more expensive than 316.
That is the first recommendation for using 304 over 316 stainless from a professional I have ever heard- times must be changing... I guess I am lucky my 35 year old boat builder used 316 stainless to build and bolt everything on her. Now give me your source for a recommendation to use 304 standing rigging over 316. Sounds to me like we are just getting lazy as boaters by not demanding the use of 316 where it should be used.

Now you bring up bronze fasteners. Those now are almost entirely made overseas by unknown manufacturers with no quality control. When you say bronze, what type of bronze are you refering? Probably just as well to use a 304 stainless bolt that will rust away in a few years.
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