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  #21  
Old 01-10-2014
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Re: Low friction rings for single-line reefing

If you replaced one of the stainless rings on the dogbone with a low friction ring you would be able to get the clew right down to the boom. With a smaller sized ring you might be about 5-10mm lower than using the cringle itself. However you wouldn't crush the sail with the reefing line. The clew reef should be pulled pretty far back to flatten the sail so a lot of that 5-10mm would be horizontal, not vertical.

The Goiot insert mentioned earlier would let you get even lower.
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  #22  
Old 01-10-2014
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Re: Low friction rings for single-line reefing

I dont have experience with the Goļot reefing cringles. I dont think I need them as my double line systems are fairly friction free ... or maybe my reefing technique is different than most.

I use 'slippery hand' reefing control lines and never have had a problem with friction during reefing, either when reefing from the mast or cockpit. I use all 'extra large' sewn-in rings with pressed brass eyelit liners in the rings. My practice is to reef my main when 'unloaded' (maybe just a wee bit of wind pressure in the leech to keep the sail 'quiet' and non-shaking) and in the shadow of a drawing jib/genoa (on a close to high reach), and that prevents/lessens 'flogging' which I deem as the major cause of reefline friction (and knots).


As JeffH began to describe, the 'downside' of single line reefing systems (also applies to in-mast furling), to me, usually promotes a 'mismatch' of sail shape for the conditions / seastate. Such systems automatically tend to make a reefed sail into something approaching a board-flat piece of plywood ... all the camber/draft stretched out and with no way to adjust where the all important location of exactly where the 'point of maximum draft' occurs. For punching into waves when going upwind you need POWER as from a well cambered and well drafted mainsail ... even a reefed or deep reefed sail. The act of reefing does reduce heeling but my question is: why do you want a FLAT shape (clew pulled to max. tension) that only generates speed but little power - power to 'punch'? With a single line reefing system if you loosen up on the clew cringle to obtain more draft (more power), the luff will correspondingly loosen which causes the 'point of max. draft' to move aft in the sail - hello 'weather helm'. If you overtighten (pulling BOTH luff and foot) youre left with a flat 'speed shape' which is only good in flat water and small waves and your forward progress in BIG waves 'goes to hell'.
A double line reefing system allows you to independently select the correct sail 'edge' tensions for the present conditions and allows a means to control 'helm pressure'.

FWIW - For long distance cruising and when going 'upwind' into waves, I usually prefer to go directly into a deeper reef; but with a 'well powered up' shape by correctly easing the clew tension. Downwind and not sailing aerodynamically, the only important issue is the amount of 'sail area' exposed.
For me reefing is only to do two things - keep the boat from skidding off to leeward because of excess heel and to prevent the boat from going past the speed of where 'death wobbles' occur.

Rx - Single line reefing, to me, does too many things all at the same time ... and you may not want some of these effects.
Double line reefing systems allow 'flexibility' to meet the needs of the present conditions.
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  #23  
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Re: Low friction rings for single-line reefing

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Originally Posted by RichH View Post
Rx - Single line reefing, to me, does too many things all at the same time ... and you may not want some of these effects.
Double line reefing systems allow 'flexibility' to meet the needs of the present conditions.
Thank you and everybody who has contributed to this thread.

I think I have gone off the idea of single-line reefing and am now planning on the two-line approach.

I needed to buy and install new clutch and organizer anyway so now I will get them with additional capacity.

I'm going to the Boat Show tomorrow so buy shares in Garhauer....
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Re: Low friction rings for single-line reefing

Ain't it grand when someone actually weighs advice and makes a decision rather than simply looking for validation?

Good on ya, FWM!
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Re: Low friction rings for single-line reefing

Have the same set up as Tim r. It works great.
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  #26  
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Re: Low friction rings for single-line reefing

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Originally Posted by flyingwelshman View Post
Thank you and everybody who has contributed to this thread.

I think I have gone off the idea of single-line reefing and am now planning on the two-line approach.

I needed to buy and install new clutch and organizer anyway so now I will get them with additional capacity.

I'm going to the Boat Show tomorrow so buy shares in Garhauer....
I have a 4 way Garhauer clutch but it gets a little confusing with 4 reefing lines... might be best to have two two-ways, one for each reef

One point I'd like to make is that reefing systems with lines going back to the cockpit go wrong : you have a lot of components. So I left all the hardware in for the old reefing system, the hook at the tack, the cleats on the boom, so I can always reef the old fashioned way. I had to do this recently, as the 1st reef tack line came away from the mast. Just nipped forward and attached the tack to the hook instead.

Likewise if a block for the clew system fails, I just cleat the line at the boom instead.
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Last edited by MarkSF; 01-10-2014 at 04:33 PM.
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Old 01-11-2014
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Re: Low friction rings for single-line reefing

EPILOGUE

Clew outhaul tension, whether for a 'full up' or reefed mainsail sets the amount of camber / draft. The general rule is FLAT sail for 'light winds' and flat water and full drafted for moderate winds and bigger waves. FLAT is a 'speed' shape, well-drafted is a 'power' shape - high gear, low gear.

The real question is HOW TO CORRECTLY SET THE AMOUNT OF DRAFT (and with disregard of wholly non-intuitive aerodynamics)
• In 'normal' conditions (typically less than 15kts.), and after attaining a reasonably perfect set/shape of your mainsail via its tell-tales, etc., go close-hauled and then ..... simply adjust the amount of draft by outhaul tension until you get the MAXIMUM output reading on your SPEEDO (or maximum VMG to be more precise).
This will automatically correct for various wind/wave conditions, as you cant get any better than 'optimum'.

You'll notice by doing this 'watch the SPEEDO' when setting the outhaul that the amount of draft will be flattish (hihg gear) for those 'light and flukey' days, and for when at full design windstrength (about 15kts.); and quite full drafted between 10-15kts. You'll also note that 'the higher the waves' the more amount of draft will be needed (power setting or 2nd gear). Setting the amount of draft by watching the speedo is quick and easy. If the wind/wave conditions change during the day, simply readjust!!!!!
You'll also notice over time that since the sail is set for 'optimum' draft you wont be surprised as much by sudden 'power-ups'. .... and no 'aerodynamics' required!!!!

To put this another way, your outhaul is equivalent to the gear shift on the transmission on a car ... and you dont want to always driving around in 'low' or 2nd gear unless of course youre going up a steep hill.


FWIW - I think a 6:1 or 8:1 outhaul system is the minimum.

;-)

Last edited by RichH; 01-11-2014 at 11:02 AM.
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Re: Low friction rings for single-line reefing

Perhaps the most common source of high friction in single line systems is line twist inside the boom (take a flashlight and look). This can practically lock it up.

Though it seems obvious that disassembly is required, the actual cure is generally to unwind the line coming from the winch. The aft line can't actually twist (both ends are secured) but the winch line often goes through a train of blocks that put a 1/16 turns on it every time it's used. This can be done simply enough in most cases, where the line exists the boom near the mast.

Take a look. I'm not saying that it is a good design or that I like them. But if you've got one,might as well understand it. If you can't pull in 90% of the line by hand, something is twisted or rigged wrong.
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Re: Low friction rings for single-line reefing

Agree with RichH but would point out as wind speed increases generally want a flatter sail to maintain the winds attachment to the sail and prevent loss of laminar flow. Also need to pay attention to where point of maximum draft is. Generally move this forward by halyard not out haul tension. Guess it depends on the boat and sails as with Dacron things stretch more. Seems with my current main I pretty much have the shape the sailmaker gave me.Mines moderate displacement so in a seaway even going upwind we are faster with a flat main, reefed if necessary with traveler down when it blows. Seems more important to keep the boat level then " powered up". Guess you just need to get out there and play.
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Re: Low friction rings for single-line reefing

Think one of the causes for friction is having a block inside the boom like in the Schaffer system. If line goes from boom to clew to boom through boom up to tack down to low friction eye near gooseneck to deck to cockpit is best. It's easy to get twist out. If halyard is marked can drop near end point of reef and pull in single line by hand using winch for last little bit. Like pulling in reef as halyard is eased so nothing catches.
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