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  #81  
Old 04-02-2014
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Re: Copper sheeting & CopperCoat anti-fouling

I have been on the road and just able to get back on here are review the questions. I will try to answer as many as I can, if you have a question that I haven't answered please ask again.

Sanding every year? No, when a Coppercoat boat is sanded properly the first time. We have found some customers who haven't sanded the hull properly the first time and
get hard growth; the problem is fixable. The hull just needs to be sanded correctly. This is difficult to do with the boat in the water. I have paid for 3 haulouts for customers who didn't sand enough. We now have a picture of what the correct amount of sanding looks like. I will see if I can get in touch with some of these customers so they can comment here.

Practical Sailor test. When we were asked to be in the Practical Sailor test we asked if we could provide a test panel and were told they would apply the Coppercoat and FOLLOW ALL of OUR DIRECTIONS. They didn't follow our directions.

The difference between Coppercoat, Copperpoxy and Copperclad? Copperpoxy was a very resin rich epoxy which was mixed with copper flakes. It was very thick and difficult to apply. Copperpoxy had to be sanded every year, at least. We talk to people at boat shows who have had Copperpoxy and most admit that it was terrible. We have talked to people that loved Copperpoxy, even after having to sand it often. Copperpoxy was also conductive and caused some issues with electrolysis, due to using copper flake (instead of super fine copper powder).
Copperclad was a copper powder in a polyester resin. The product was sprayed in molds by a number of boat builders. We see customers who have had good luck with Copperclad, but now it is wearing thin (15+ years) and want to know if they can coat Coppercoat over the Copperclad, and the answer is yes.
According to Aquarius Marine Coatings, the makers of Coppercoat, there have been 20 different companies who have made a copper in epoxy anti-fouling paint over the past 20or so years. All of those companies are out of business. Coppercoat has been on the market for 23 years.
Different results. First, a lot of the comments about Coppercoat aren't necessarily Coppercoat. Often people lump all copper epoxy coats under the name Coppercoat because it has been around longer than the other coatings and it comes to mind. I can only comment on the 5 years experience I have selling Coppercoat. Coppercoat requires that you clean it from time to time, we tell our customer that all the time. The cleaning varies by location. Boats in New England don't require as much cleaning on the whole as boats in the Caribbean or a hot harbor in Florida. Most of our customers tell us that their boats don't require any more cleaning than the other coatings where they are located.
Medsailor, can you confirm that "Magician" did in fact have Coppercoat on the bottom and not another copper/epoxy coating. Where was "Magician" located?
Coppercoat has only been available in the US for 5 (2009) years. If you hear of a boat that was coated with a copper & epoxy coating in the US earlier than that, it was probably something else. However, there are many boats in the US who had Coppercoat applied elsewhere 6-20 years ago and the owners are very happy.
Why isn't everyone using Coppercoat? There are several reasons that more people are not using Coppercoat. The first is that Coppercoat is a little more expensive than other anti-fouling paints. Another reason is that in order to apply Coppercoat you must first remove the old anti-fouling paint. You do not need to remove old barrier coat as some people think. You only need to remove the old anti-fouling paint and that adds an additional expense to the application process. Another reason is that a LOT of boatyards don't want you to use Coppercoat. They want you to come back every couple of years for a new bottom job. We have had boatyard owners tell us: "Why should I put your product on a boat? It is going to cost me business down the road". We have also been told "I Love barnacles, they make me money".
I can't speak for all of the boats in the world that have had Coppercoat applied, but all of the boats we have done here in the states we have worked very hard to make sure that they were done correctly. We have been fighting all of the negative comments about some of the other copper/epoxy coats that have been out there and failed.
The picture that Fastbottoms has posted is a boat that we can find no record of having bought Coppercoat here in the states. It is possible that he may have Coppercoat, but it wasn't bought here in the US.
When ever a Coppercoat customer here in the states has a problem I here about it. In every instance when I have been contacted I have tried to help the customer sort out the issues. Over 60% of our customers are "do it yourself" customers and we offer a lot of support to them to make sure that Coppercoat works.
Coppercoat is not for everyone. It is more expensive that most other coatings, but our customers feel that it is well worth the price over the life of the coating. A lot of our customers are cruisers and plan to sail off and not have to worry about trying to find a yard in BFE to do a bottom job.
We call it a 10 year bottom paint because that is when most of our customer began to do the first touch ups on the bottoms. We have found 2 boats this year that have had Coppercoat on for 20 years with one touch up.
If there are more questions please post them or send me a PM. I am happy to answer any questions, I'm not on here often but will get back in a day or so.
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  #82  
Old 04-02-2014
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Re: Copper sheeting & CopperCoat anti-fouling

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Originally Posted by Edboat View Post
...

Practical Sailor test. When we were asked to be in the Practical Sailor test we asked if we could provide a test panel and were told they would apply the Coppercoat and FOLLOW ALL of OUR DIRECTIONS. They didn't follow our directions.
Can you tell us (a) what the instructions are for applying Coopercoat and (b) what PS did wrong?
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  #83  
Old 04-02-2014
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Re: Copper sheeting & CopperCoat anti-fouling

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Originally Posted by Edboat View Post
In every instance when I have been contacted I have tried to help the customer sort out the issues. Over 60% of our customers are "do it yourself" customers and we offer a lot of support to them to make sure that Coppercoat works.
I/we can't speak for ALL users, but we DID get fast service when we applied it! The yard we had apply it contacted and we did with one small issue we had and got good a reply, fast.

Greg
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  #84  
Old 04-02-2014
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Re: Copper sheeting & CopperCoat anti-fouling

I have had Copper Coat on my boat for almost two years now. (really too early to tell though) But FWIW, it has been fantastic. I have a diver clean the slime off every four months or so. I had to have a recent haul out for a warranty issue, the guys at the yard were astounded on what they saw. The bottom was brand spanking clean. The project manager thought that they must have done a power wash when it was hauled, he found out that no power wash was done, the bottom was clean and fast. I love the stuff.

I knew about the Washington laws when I had it put on. We all thought that Washington was going to go the route of California to allow copper paint as long as it was not ablative based. Not so. So just another reason to move our boat to warmer climes. That was the plan anyway when we bought the boat, now our lovely state has given us more motivation.

/RANTON
Oh, and BTW, luxury yachts (+65 foot) and commercial boats are exempt from the law. The thought being luxury yachts move their boats to warmer weather every winter anyway so they are not REALLY in the Puget Sound that much anyway. (this is an actual documented reason for the exemption, seriously) And commercial ventures fund all the lobbyists so why would the politicians cut their own throat. I could go on an on about this, but I'm done, sorry for the RANT. There is also good stuff why the PNW boating industry association drove this law also, leave that one for latter.
/RANTOFF
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  #85  
Old 04-02-2014
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Re: Copper sheeting & CopperCoat anti-fouling

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Originally Posted by kellysails View Post
We all thought that Washington was going to go the route of California to allow copper paint as long as it was not ablative based. Not so.
Just in the interest of accuracy, this not the route California took. Currently there are no anti fouling paint restrictions (other than regional VOC regulations) anywhere in the state. If it's legally for sale, you can use it. The Port of San Diego has forbidden professional hull divers from creating a "plume" while cleaning boat bottoms, but that is not the same as banning ablative paints. In fact, boat owners in San Diego can dive their own boats, scrub away at an ablative paint and create as much of a plume as they want.
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  #86  
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Re: Copper sheeting & CopperCoat anti-fouling

Thanks for the clarification, my bad. The subject matter just makes my head spin off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fstbttms View Post
Just in the interest of accuracy, this not the route California took. Currently there are no anti fouling paint restrictions (other than regional VOC regulations) anywhere in the state. If it's legally for sale, you can use it. The Port of San Diego has forbidden professional hull divers from creating a "plume" while cleaning boat bottoms, but that is not the same as banning ablative paints. In fact, boat owners in San Diego can dive their own boats, scrub away at an ablative paint and create as much of a plume as they want.
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  #87  
Old 04-03-2014
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Re: Copper sheeting & CopperCoat anti-fouling

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Originally Posted by Edboat View Post

Sanding every year? No, when a Coppercoat boat is sanded properly the first time. We have found some customers who haven't sanded the hull properly the first time and get hard growth; the problem is fixable. The hull just needs to be sanded correctly. This is difficult to do with the boat in the water. I have paid for 3 haulouts for customers who didn't sand enough. We now have a picture of what the correct amount of sanding looks like. I will see if I can get in touch with some of these customers so they can comment here.

Practical Sailor test. When we were asked to be in the Practical Sailor test we asked if we could provide a test panel and were told they would apply the Coppercoat and FOLLOW ALL of OUR DIRECTIONS. They didn't follow our directions.

I can't speak for all of the boats in the world that have had Coppercoat applied, but all of the boats we have done here in the states we have worked very hard to make sure that they were done correctly. We have been fighting all of the negative comments about some of the other copper/epoxy coats that have been out there and failed.

I am happy to answer any questions, I'm not on here often but will get back in a day or so.
Ed,

So, we will be in Fort Lauderdale next fall, and want to do the CopperCoat installation to our CT 56 before being transported to Europe in the spring of 2015.

Previously in Fort Lauderdale, I have had our work done at Playboy Boat yard.
Is this where you would suggest having the Coppercoat done? Do you have any specific installers in FtL? How do I buy the product from you?

It sounds very much like the best long term anti fouling system to install, and considering we are about to go to Europe, for years, we fall into the set of people you described who want the freedom from having to haul in places we are not familiar with. If the worst I might have to do is to annually hire a diver to give it a cleaning, or do that myself, we would be quite pleased.
We're not into racing, so our hull does not have to be race ready, just cruise ready....

Thank you,
Doug
S/V Triumph TriumphCharters . com
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Re: Copper sheeting & CopperCoat anti-fouling

In response to Mastund, we asked Practical Sailor to properly sand the panel before it went into the water and then the panel would need to be cleaned from time to time depending on the level of fouling. In talking to other paint companies about the Practical Sailor test, based on the way they do the test and the cleaning, splashing a bucket of water over the panel, the test appears to show which coating is the best ablative choice.

To Dougsab, Pm me for FTL information.
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Re: Copper sheeting & CopperCoat anti-fouling

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Originally Posted by Edboat View Post
In response to Mastund, we asked Practical Sailor to properly sand the panel before it went into the water and then the panel would need to be cleaned from time to time depending on the level of fouling. In talking to other paint companies about the Practical Sailor test, based on the way they do the test and the cleaning, splashing a bucket of water over the panel, the test appears to show which coating is the best ablative choice.

To Dougsab, Pm me for FTL information.
You don't have to talk to other paint companies. PS publishes their test procedures, and indeed it involves splashing water over the panels occasionally, to simulate moving the boat. Other than that the panels are just hanging in the water until they are evaluated, just like a boat sitting in a marina or on a mooring.

So you say your product needs regular cleaning "depending on the level of fouling."

That seems to set the bar pretty low. Any product will be fine if you clean the bottom once it gets fouled.

Including no paint at all
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Re: Copper sheeting & CopperCoat anti-fouling

FWIW to everyone, I will be utilizing the services of EdBoat in Fort Lauderdale next fall to apply the Coppercoat system on our 1986 Tai Chiao CT 56. I will make sure all the advisements / instructions are followed religiously. :-)

Then, I will post to Sailnet the results obtained over the ensuing years as we sit in Fort Lauderdale for a few months, doing a little cruising, and then as we extensively cruise in Europe with no specific plans of returning to America.

At this point, I am optimistic that we will be pleased with the performance enough to spend the money to do this. I am inspired, thus the optimism, because I have never found any antifouling system, of ablative or not, paint, to perform all that well.

It should be very interesting.
Sincerely,
Doug
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