safe cooking - Page 27 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree96Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #261  
Old 04-03-2014
hellosailor's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 10,802
Thanks: 2
Thanked 97 Times in 94 Posts
Rep Power: 10
hellosailor has a spectacular aura about hellosailor has a spectacular aura about
Re: safe cooking

Yes, you could "add something" but then you'd probably have questions about corrosion, clogging, "Stove fuel only!" at higher prices because it couldn't be safely used for something else. Health concerns about combustion products. What a can of sterno. Ergh, worms.

A yellow flame, as in unpressurized alky burners, is the classic sign of incomplete combustion. And a "cold" flame. Nothing to be proud of.
mitiempo and christian.hess like this.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #262  
Old 04-03-2014
captain jack's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: frederick, md
Posts: 1,283
Thanks: 87
Thanked 41 Times in 37 Posts
Rep Power: 2
captain jack is on a distinguished road
Re: safe cooking

Quote:
Originally Posted by christian.hess View Post
I was just cruising through craigslist and I found 5 or 6 PRESSURIZED alcohol stoves and not one propane stove oven combo...

wonder why?
wink wink

they were cheap too captainjack
thanks. but, i think i'll go non pressurized. it might cost me a little more than the pressurized systems people are trying to get rid of on craigslist but, it sounds like it's worth it.
__________________
The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do.---Captain Jack Sparrow


1971 Cal 27

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #263  
Old 04-03-2014
captain jack's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: frederick, md
Posts: 1,283
Thanks: 87
Thanked 41 Times in 37 Posts
Rep Power: 2
captain jack is on a distinguished road
Re: safe cooking

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
i have used propane since 1990 without problems and i have rarely used safety precaution of solenoid. just remember to turn off the gas before changing tanks.....
propane burns hotter than alcohol. try cooking abalone on alcohol..you WILL only have shoe rubber. btd..


and i never cook safes.....they get too hot ....cannot open them when too hot....
good one.

i never cook abalone.
__________________
The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do.---Captain Jack Sparrow


1971 Cal 27

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #264  
Old 04-03-2014
zeehag's Avatar
snake charmer, cat herder
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: refitting a formosa in exotic tropical locations....
Posts: 1,695
Thanks: 4
Thanked 24 Times in 24 Posts
Rep Power: 7
zeehag is on a distinguished road
Re: safe cooking

those intending to cruise to mexico and other places should research the availability of stove fuel.
mexico does not allow kerosene nor alcohol for stove fuel . only propane, which is readily available everywhere. if you try to transport kero over border, it will be taken from you.

btw, brent sain, alcohol fire flames are difficult to see. when something or someone is on fire with alcohol fuel as the accelerant, it is not visible, except for the blisters being made on the skin or in the paint of the race car or in the fiberglass inside the boat.
the formosa i bought had had 5 galley fires before i bought and changed the non pressurized alcohol stove.
when i watched po of my ericson light a 3 ft tall flame in the ericson i ultimately bought, i decided then and there to convert to propane. is much safer.
try adding fuel to a burner of an alcohol stove while in a seaway while underway with following or quartering 8-12 ft seas.... i dare ye..is how 5 pos burned this formosa...
enjoy .
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

formosa 41,ahoomail cruising


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by zeehag; 04-03-2014 at 10:26 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #265  
Old 04-04-2014
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 15
Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 0
Solandri is on a distinguished road
Re: safe cooking

Not gonna quote who I'm replying to, just gonna give the replies.

The reason propane is so popular is because it's a gas at room temperature but liquefies at a relatively low pressure (about 100-150 psi). That makes it easy to store (a thin metal pressure vessel lets you store it as a liquid), but burns as a gas so provides good heat density. Butane is similar but liquefies at an even lower pressure. As others have pointed out, propane and butane sink in air, so are a particular danger aboard boats as a leak will build up in the bilge. Fire is the main danger when that happens. Explosions require a rather specific ratio of fuel to air, and typically require it to be mixed rather than striated with fuel on the bottom, air on top. If the ratio is off, it will just burn (too much air) or simmer (too much fuel) rather than explode.

CNG (methane) remains a gas under pressure. So CNG tanks are typically designed to withstand 1000-5000 psi. They have to be much thicker - think scuba diving tank. This has weight and safety implications. The energy density for a given volume is also much worse than the liquid fuels. Also note that methane is normally odorless. The Gas Company adds the smell you know as the leaking gas smell, and farts smell because of sulfates mixed in with the methane. I would assume CNG sold as fuel also has the smell added.

The liquid fuels - alcohol and kerosene for this application - don't burn as well because they're liquid. You need to do something to increase their surface area to burn enough of it at once to really generate heat. Typically this is done with a wick, but it's not as good as a gaseous fuel. That's why people complain about long cooking times. Gasoline and diesel burned in an engine use either a carburetor or injector to vaporize the liquid to get around this problem. Pressurized alcohol stoves also gasify the alcohol prior to burning to get around this problem. But the lack of surface area (low rate at which it vaporizes) also has an upside - it makes the fuel safer.

Kerosene also has a problem in that it's not as clean burning as the other fuels. Like gasoline and diesel, it's actually composed of a lot of different hydrocarbons, each of which burns differently. So you're more likely to get other compounds than CO2, water, and soot after burning. That's why people complain about the smell.

Electric has a huge efficiency problem. All the fuels listed above are 100% efficient for heating applications. That is, all the energy in the fuel goes into heating up your cookware (before it dissipates into the air). Gas and diesel generators are only about 30% or 35% efficient at best. That is, 30%-35% of the energy in the fuel is converted into electricity. The rest goes into heating up the generator. So if you're using a 1000W electric stove, for every 1000W of heat that makes it to your cookware, about 2500W of heat is wasted heating up the seawater or air cooling your generator. So unless you're on shore power or getting all your electricity from wind/solar, this has huge implications for the amount of fuel burned for a given number of meals. If you do go electric though, I think induction is the way to go. It's more finicky, but it almost completely eliminates the risk of fire due to something flammable falling on the heating element.

Carbon monoxide is a higher energy state than carbon dioxide, so is typically a byproduct of insufficient oxygenation. The fuel wants to burn into CO2, but there's not enough oxygen so it becomes CO instead. As long as you have good ventilation to your burner (the outlets are clean with good airflow) and aren't trying to burn too large a quantity of fuel at once, you shouldn't have a carbon monoxide problem.

Energy density of these fuels:

Propane: 49.6 MJ/kg, 25.3 MJ/liter
Butane: 49.1 MJ/kg, 27.7 MJ/liter
Alcohol: 30 MJ/kg, 24 MJ/liter
CNG: 55.6 MJ/kg, 0.038 MJ/liter (1 atmosphere), 12.9 MJ/liter (5000 psi)
Kerosene: 42.8 MJ/kg, 33 MJ/liter
Gasoline: 46.4 MJ/kg, 34.2 MJ/liter
Diesel: 46.2 MJ/kg, 37.3 MJ/liter

This tells you how much of a fuel you'll need to burn to cook identical meals. Lower numbers = more fuel needed; divide by 3.5 for gas electric, 3 for diesel electric. e.g. CNG stored at 5000 psi is 12.9 MJ/liter, so you'll need just about twice the volume of CNG to cook a meal as you would propane (25.3 MJ/liter). An electric stove running off a gas generator is equivalent to about 10.7 MJ/liter, so you'd burn 2.4 gallons of gasoline for every 1 gallon of propane used for cooking. Induction is probably better because it heats the cookware directly, though I'm not sure how much better.

I'm not knowledgeable enough about the day-to-day use of these fuels to comment on their relative safety. But understand that there are a lot of different factors which should go into your decision than just safety.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Solandri For This Useful Post:
captain jack (04-04-2014), Multihullgirl (04-04-2014)
  #266  
Old 04-04-2014
mitiempo's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
Posts: 7,232
Thanks: 0
Thanked 74 Times in 65 Posts
Rep Power: 8
mitiempo will become famous soon enough mitiempo will become famous soon enough
Re: safe cooking

You are wrong about kerosene. It burns as a vapor after the burner is pre-heated with alcohol. Very hot burning and virtually odorless. I doubt there has been a wick type of kerosene stove on boats for over 100 years.
__________________
Brian
Living aboard in Victoria Harbour
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #267  
Old 04-04-2014
zeehag's Avatar
snake charmer, cat herder
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: refitting a formosa in exotic tropical locations....
Posts: 1,695
Thanks: 4
Thanked 24 Times in 24 Posts
Rep Power: 7
zeehag is on a distinguished road
Re: safe cooking

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
You are wrong about kerosene. It burns as a vapor after the burner is pre-heated with alcohol. Very hot burning and virtually odorless. I doubt there has been a wick type of kerosene stove on boats for over 100 years.
friend of mine bought one recently. wasnew.
kerosene stinks when burning, so isnt like yer gonna sit inside with the doors shut and breathe this stink.

cng is great.
but..... try to obtain it easily outside of usa. is not available here, that i have found.... i am in mexico, btw.....

might be a really great idea to research cooking fuels in the locales you plan on cruising so you can figure out what kind of cooking you want to do on board at sea in a seaway and at anchor in bumpy and in smooth anchorages before committing self to anything.
there are many miles between the dream stage and inside usa cruising and out in the world of omygodswhatami gonna cook with., there isnt alcohol nor cng in mexico..nor kerosene... omy now what me gonna do as i refused to use propane on board ,..yada yada yada.....(as well as refused to listen to that crazy bitch who is actually out in mexico cruising and seeking items friends request....)
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

formosa 41,ahoomail cruising


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #268  
Old 04-04-2014
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 467
Thanks: 17
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Rep Power: 5
MastUndSchotbruch is on a distinguished road
Re: safe cooking

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
kerosene stinks when burning, so isnt like yer gonna sit inside with the doors shut and breathe this stink.
We have discussed this several times in this thread (you may want to read it). You are confounded about kerosene burnt through a wick and through a generator. The first stinks, the second doesn't.

I don't know what makes you think that there is no kerosene available in Mexico. It is correct that consumption at the end consumer level is way down, probably due to replacement by other light and energy sources. Still, in 2010 (last data available), the country still used 430 barrels a year: Mexico Kerosene Consumption by Year (Thousand Barrels per Day)

Oh, and if there weren't any kerosene, they wouldn't be flying planes (Jet A fuel is kerosene).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #269  
Old 04-04-2014
zeehag's Avatar
snake charmer, cat herder
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: refitting a formosa in exotic tropical locations....
Posts: 1,695
Thanks: 4
Thanked 24 Times in 24 Posts
Rep Power: 7
zeehag is on a distinguished road
Re: safe cooking

i have been in mexico here for 3 years--got here april 7, 2011, by sailboat from san diego..lol.... not in border towns nor in gringo locales, but with locals in ports with my cat and my boat. i will be sailing here until my boat is finished....needs some work now.
are you here in mexico or are you at a puter desk in northville.
friends of mine live in mexico in houses. they have lived here longer than have i, and they let me know what is not available here for citizens and turistas and other non military folks.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

formosa 41,ahoomail cruising


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by zeehag; 04-04-2014 at 06:27 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #270  
Old 04-04-2014
Brewgyver's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: So Cal
Posts: 376
Thanks: 6
Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Brewgyver is on a distinguished road
Re: safe cooking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex W View Post
The thread starter (captain jack, right?) has a Cal 2-27. I don't think he'll be doing a lot of international offshore cruising on that boat.
Funny, but there was a post in the"Spot" thread with a link to an article in
Latitude 38
about a "well known single hander" in his Cal 2-27... After 5 solo crossings from SD to Hawaii, he lost a shroud and eventually the mast while en route from Kahlului to Lahaina.
__________________
s/v My Sweet Girl!
Catalina 30 (Mark I)
Atomic 4
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
The Following User Says Thank You to Brewgyver For This Useful Post:
captain jack (04-04-2014)
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Solar cooking... travlineasy General Discussion (sailing related) 4 01-30-2013 04:52 PM
Solar cooking bwalker42 Provisioning 24 10-04-2012 01:51 PM
Cooking in a gale..... MedSailor Gear & Maintenance 8 02-27-2012 01:11 PM
Looking for a Cooking Author socaleditor Provisioning 1 02-06-2005 04:52 PM
cooking duffyM Provisioning 10 09-04-2003 05:28 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:45 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.