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safe cooking

26K views 300 replies 39 participants last post by  hellosailor 
#1 ·
i have read a lot of threads about stoves on boats. of course, the usual debate is alcohol or propane.

recently, last month actually, a powerboat at the marina my boat is berthed at caught fire and burned up completely. it was a live aboard. the guy was hurt but he lived. he was lucky. he bought another power boat off of their lean dock and moved into it. the cause? his propane stove.

that was a real piece of reality for me. no propane on my boat!

but, there are safety risks with alcohol, too. the threads i have read make that plain. so, the big question i have is what other options are there?

also, how real is the risk with alcohol?

as i get my boat ready to sail, this will be a choice i am going to have to face. it doesn't have a stove but i will want one for cruising. eating out at every port you stp at is going to be way too costly and you can't always be sure you will be stopping at a port for the night. thanks.
 
#198 ·
I think BoatUS is combining propane or at least they address it in their article. More telling is they attribute the decrease in stove fires to a decrease in alcohol stoves.

“6) Stove - 1%
Stove fires appear to be less common (1%) than in the past, probably due to fewer alcohol stoves being installed on new boats. Still, alcohol can be a dangerous fuel; though it can’t explode, an alcohol flame is hard to see. One fire was started when a member tried to light the stove and gave up because he couldn’t see the flame. Unfortunately, he had succeeded, but didn’t realize it until he got a call from the fire department. Only one fire was started by propane; a portable stove fell off a counter and ignited a cushion.”

True story. Anyone of you familiar with the Sierra Nevada Mountains and Priest Grade? Priest is an original road (trail?) that went up to Groveland in the gold country. Very, very steep grade that lasts for five miles or more. Big signs on both ends prohibiting large trucks, vehicles with trailers and RVs. It is about 15-20 miles shorter than the “modern” road and cuts travel time considerably. On this particular day an RV driver decided to take the shortcut down and as forewarned, burnt out his brakes about halfway. Fortunately, he was able to use the hillside as a brake to stop his runaway vehicle instead of going over the cliff edge and certain death. The family evacuated safely but the burnt out brakes caught the surrounding grasses on fire which caught the RV on fire. Roaring fire, with the roof burnt off, the vehicle walls acted as a chimney. Gas from the fuel tank added to the conflagration. With fire all around, the propane tank started to cook off. When it did, The poppet valve released and a hundred foot flame shot out through the roof with a whoosh. The biggest explosion were the tires cooking off and expanding then bursting. Those went off with a bang that I would have thought what would happen to the propane tank. Not to say propane can’t explode, but this was one exciting afternoon in any case.

Can I make one last plea for bringing back coal for cooking? It’s not volatile, won’t explode, compact, and has about twice the BTUs as wood or charcoal.
 
#203 · (Edited)
I think BoatUS is combining propane or at least they address it in their article. More telling is they attribute the decrease in stove fires to a decrease in alcohol stoves.

"6) Stove - 1%
Stove fires appear to be less common (1%) than in the past, probably due to fewer alcohol stoves being installed on new boats. Still, alcohol can be a dangerous fuel; though it can't explode, an alcohol flame is hard to see. One fire was started when a member tried to light the stove and gave up because he couldn't see the flame. Unfortunately, he had succeeded, but didn't realize it until he got a call from the fire department. Only one fire was started by propane; a portable stove fell off a counter and ignited a cushion."

True story. Anyone of you familiar with the Sierra Nevada Mountains and Priest Grade? Priest is an original road (trail?) that went up to Groveland in the gold country. Very, very steep grade that lasts for five miles or more. Big signs on both ends prohibiting large trucks, vehicles with trailers and RVs. It is about 15-20 miles shorter than the "modern" road and cuts travel time considerably. On this particular day an RV driver decided to take the shortcut down and as forewarned, burnt out his brakes about halfway. Fortunately, he was able to use the hillside as a brake to stop his runaway vehicle instead of going over the cliff edge and certain death. The family evacuated safely but the burnt out brakes caught the surrounding grasses on fire which caught the RV on fire. Roaring fire, with the roof burnt off, the vehicle walls acted as a chimney. Gas from the fuel tank added to the conflagration. With fire all around, the propane tank started to cook off. When it did, The poppet valve released and a hundred foot flame shot out through the roof with a whoosh. The biggest explosion were the tires cooking off and expanding then bursting. Those went off with a bang that I would have thought what would happen to the propane tank. Not to say propane can't explode, but this was one exciting afternoon in any case.

Can I make one last plea for bringing back coal for cooking? It's not volatile, won't explode, compact, and has about twice the BTUs as wood or charcoal.
i'm probably going to sound silly for asking but are you serious of joking about the coal? my grandparents used to heat the house with a coal stove and had a kero stove to cook on.
 
#199 ·
Actually the Cookmate two-burner is cheap because it is A TOY.

Two 6800 BTU burners is equal to ONE real stovetop burner. It is that simple. If you want to boil a small kettle of tea, or one cup of soup, that's fine. If you want to get a decent weight 4-quart pot to a boil...This is why so many boaters just buy a $20 (now $25) "Korean BBQ special" butane canister one-burner stove, and if it rusts in five years, toss it. With due care for handling the butane and storing it, it is still real damn hard to beat the value and power of the $25 burners.

A 1500-watt device will use 1500 watts times one hour, or 1500 WATT HOURS in one hour of use. At 12.6 volts (from battery voltage, not alternator or genset) that's 1500/12.6 => 119 Amps being drawn.

In ten minutes of use, it will use 1500/ (60/10) => 1500/6 => 250 "WATT HOURS" of power consumed in those ten minutes.

250 WATT HOURS on a nominal battery system, with nearly fully charged batteries at 12.6 volts, would be about 20 AMP HOURS out of the bank, drawn during those TEN MINUTES, if I've done my math right.

And since inverters all have efficiency losses, and "volts time amps" actually equal "volt-amperes" which in turn are NOT the same as Watts (there's another conversion loss to be factored in on AC systems)...ten minutes on the 1500-Watt induction stove, or any other AC device, will probably use closer to 25 AH from the "12" volt battery bank. More like 30AH if the battery is at a slightly lower voltage, and there are higher inverter losses, and so on.

If you use that induction burner for a bacon and egg breakfast, and then again to skillet-sear a steak or boil diner...I'd hate to use 50? 70? amp hours per day for cooking. I think for most of us, that's a huge dent in the energy budget.
 
#200 ·
Units are important. There are a couple of people on this thread with near saintly patience. Kudos to Puddin' Tain and GeorgeB who have been getting it right.

Units are important. If you are using units like amps/hr (or /min or /sec) you don't understand. If you use amps to measure power (W, kW) or energy (Ws, Wh, kWh, or (unfortunately since it adds voltage dependance) Ah) you don't understand. Carry the unit terms through your calculations and you'll see you the error of your ways. This is Jr High School algebra and you should understand it.

I don't intend to offend anyone directly. I hope to help you understand just how important this material is, and that if you get the units straight you will be an electrical rock star.

anonymous said:
If a microwave is used sparingly, as they nearly always are, the DC amp usage is pretty low. An inverter is needed. But your 1200 watt example need not be that high. A small microwave at 700 watts AC will use about 70 amps DC through the inverter. 5 minutes of use to heat something up or make popcorn or whatever will use 70 divided by 12 or a bit less than 6 amps DC.
This is a great example. Lets walk through it.

First remember that watts are a measure of power that is NOT voltage dependent. That makes them great for dealing with voltage conversions that happen at inverters or battery chargers. Let's use my little Tappan microwave instead of the undefined one above. It is sold as a 600W microwave because that is the output of the microwave transmitter in the oven. If you read the label on the back you'll see it draws a maximum of 850 watts; the difference is due to the efficiency of the transmitter, losses in the power supply, and the control board, clock, etc. So we use 850 watts.

Actual RMS AC voltage (what you read on a volt meter) for US spec appliances should be between 117 and 120 VAC at 60 Hz (Hertz is just the frequency of the alternating cycle (AC) power). Let's use 120 to keep things simple.

850 watts (volt·amperes neglecting power factor which isn't relevant until we talk about refrigerators, air conditioners, or other device with significant rotating loads) / 120 volts = 7 amps ON THE AC CIRCUIT supplied by the inverter. We'll go back to watts to work our way through the voltage conversion in the inverter since it is voltage independent. My Mastervolt 2kW inverter has an efficiency of 95% - actually pretty decent. 850 watts on the AC side turns into 850 watts/0.95 = 895 watts on the DC side. If my batteries are fully charged and providing 13.6 VDC the microwave will draw 895 watts / 13.6 V = 66 amps. That's a lot of amps. If I heat up a casserole for 8 minutes I'll use 66 amps * 8 minutes / 60 minutes/hr = 8.8 Ah from my 675 Ah battery bank, about 1.3% of capacity. Not bad at all.

Lets look at a spaghetti dinner on an induction cooktop. Assume 3 minutes at 1500 watts to boil the pasta water and 11 minutes to cook the pasta at a lower setting - say 600 watts. We also heat canned spaghetti sauce (I'm making this simple so we don't have to saute meat and mirepoix, and sauce and paste, yadayadayada) at about 300 watts for the same total time.

3 min * 1500 W + 11 min * 600 W + 14 min * 300 W = 15300 W·min (aren't watts wonderful?)
Through the inverter 15300 W·min/.95 efficiency = 16105 W·min
Again with fully charged batteries that means 16105 W·min / 13.6 V / 60 min/hr = 20 Ah
Not the end of the world, but that does mean that if spaghetti is representative of a cooked meal and you make two a day aboard and that if refrigeration draws about the same 20 Ah you could cook with propane and have two big refrigerators and a separate freezer and come out ahead. If that's a good trade-off for you, fine - just make the decision with your eyes open and don't kid yourself that there is some magic efficiency changing the rules of physics.

Now one watt is roughly 3.4 BTUs, so a 1500 W induction hob is equivalent to a 5100 BTU propane stove burner. It can't be different. Force 10 and Eno propane cookers (for example) have large burners that run between 8000 and 8500 BTUs. The smaller burners hover around 3400 BTU. So in our spaghetti example above, the propane stove will boil the water faster than the induction hob, but that only reduces the initial 3 minutes. It isn't relevant to heating the sauce or cooking the pasta at reduced heat.

In fairness, most propane cookers have an electrical solenoid in the propane locker that draws a surprising amount of power. Many draw about 1 A the entire time they are switched on. So our spaghetti dinner on a propane cooker consumes 14 min * 1 A / 60 min/hr = 0.23 Ah. Not much, but it should be counted.

All the efficiency claims of induction are relative to electrical resistance heating, not gas.

Exercise: look up and understand current (amps), power (W), and energy (Wh, Ah, BTU).

In my opinion (all the above is fact - this is opinion) propane is the best choice for cooking aboard although it does carry some small risk. If you use a gas powered generator like the Honda to top up your batteries to support electric cooking the risk is similar. If you use a diesel generator, a diesel main, or alternative energy the risk is slightly higher for propane.

If you are so concerned with the explosive potential of propane as to rule it out you can make inductive cooking work but your battery bank better be big (off hand, 1200 Ah or so) and you should have the charging capacity to match unless you eat out a lot.
 
#205 ·
Coal? No good for boats, too hard to get good coal in most of the developed world, and too easy to have a monoxide problem.

But speaking of spaghetti, that's a classic "ain't gonna happen" on a 6800btu burner. Can't boil a big pot of water on that. Although, most of us were taught how to cook pasta the rich way, with a big pot of rolling boiling water. If you just bring the water to a boil, and then shut the burner and come back to stir the pasta every few minutes, it cooks up just fine. May take 20 minutes instead of 10, but it cooks just fine without the need for copious amounts of boiling water. Great way to save fuel, whatever kind it is.
 
#212 ·
actually, if you couldn't cook spagetti, it wouldn't effect me a bit. i don't really care for italian food and i never cook pasta. i do eat ramen noodles but that only takes a teapot full of water. i pour the boiling water on the noodles in a sealable tupperware bowl and just wait for the hot water to do it's work. drain it, add soy sauce and the powder packet. stir it in. add meat, eggs, whatever. stir and eat.

but i don't spagetti. :)
 
#209 ·
So what I've gathered is that, done right, propane and alcohol are both very safe. The danger of a fire or explosion from either of them is a small fraction of the other dangers involved in boating.

But for a person with a small boat who is trying to keep systems simple and costs down it sure sounds like alcohol comes out a winner. Two or three hundred bucks for an Origo and you're done. No solenoids, no hoses, no valves...

At least that's how I'm leaning for cooking in my tiny boat.
 
#210 ·
If your worried about fires then DON'T cook ANYTHING with GREASE or OIL, those cause more fires than the fuel you use. I would worry more about a dragging anchor than a cooking fuel fire.
 
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#211 ·
The more I look into it, the better coal sounds. Problem with carbon monoxide? That is so twelfth century. You don’t need to cook over an open brazier like the Vikings. Install a proper stove with a flue. Availability? I found two sources in San Francisco alone. One within walking distance to the St Francis Yacht Club! Coal has been the cooking fuel on sailing ships since the early 19th century. It was still a major cooking fuel on American shipping until the mid-twentieth century before the industry went over to far more dangerous and explosive fuels. If you use coal, you would be communing with our seafaring forefathers and at $7.50 per 50# sack, I’m thinking of switching over from wood in our fireplace at home.

Jack, all kidding aside, keep it simple, keep it affordable. You will be fine. One word of caution, in the six years Mrs. B sailed my little boat, she never once lit the alcohol stove. With propane, I wake up to the aroma of coffee. I couldn’t be happier.
 
#216 ·
The more I look into it, the better coal sounds. Problem with carbon monoxide? That is so twelfth century. You don't need to cook over an open brazier like the Vikings. Install a proper stove with a flue. Availability? I found two sources in San Francisco alone. One within walking distance to the St Francis Yacht Club! Coal has been the cooking fuel on sailing ships since the early 19th century. It was still a major cooking fuel on American shipping until the mid-twentieth century before the industry went over to far more dangerous and explosive fuels. If you use coal, you would be communing with our seafaring forefathers and at $7.50 per 50# sack, I'm thinking of switching over from wood in our fireplace at home.

Jack, all kidding aside, keep it simple, keep it affordable. You will be fine. One word of caution, in the six years Mrs. B sailed my little boat, she never once lit the alcohol stove. With propane, I wake up to the aroma of coffee. I couldn't be happier.
i thought you were pulling my leg:D but, you never know. my grandparents heated with coal all of their lives, as i said. my grandfather used to take buckets and walk along the train track to get it. it was dirty coal but it was free. so, i wasn't sure if you were joking or serious.
 
#218 ·
one thing i have learned from this thread: cooking with propane inspires the same type of devotion as jesus. if you let on it might not be for you, people want to burn you at the stake!:D
 
#228 ·
Propane = risk of boom.

CNG = risk that you can't find a fill station... or boom.

Alcohol = risk of burn (or blindness if you drink it)

Kerosene = risk of CO poisoning.

Electric and genset = risk of being murdered by your neighbor in a quiet anchorage

Wood = risk of setting fire to your boat

Diesel = risk of wood and kerosene combined

fission = risk of cancer

fusion = risk of the CIA murdering your for your technology

cold food = risk of suicide

Everything has risk. You make your choices, you CHOOSE WHICH RISK you prefer and go with it. If propane were really all that dangerous don't you think that the drunken idiots all over America that are operating poorly maintained, made in China BBQs would be blowing themselves up all time? Yet somehow they're not....

MedSailor
 
#231 ·
If propane were really all that dangerous don't you think that the drunken idiots all over America that are operating poorly maintained, made in China BBQs would be blowing themselves up all time? Yet somehow they're not....

MedSailor
that makes logical sense....except if you look at the world around you. the above mentioned drunken idiots are constantly doing really stupid things that would normally blow up and be fatal if a normal, non drunken idiot sort of person did it....and nothing bad happens to them. sometimes it seems that the universe looks out a little bit more for those kinds of people. otherwise, there'd be a lot more fatalities involving camaflage colored four wheelers and monster trucks.:D
 
#241 ·
as it should be on a boat...I didnt mind the slow cooking from my alcohol stove I found it very practical...

no urge at all...

propane even less...some burners are better than others but on a boat lets all just be happy sipping on some boat made coco or coffee etc...
 
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#246 · (Edited)
"Hmmm...alcohol stoves can't cook pasta? "
Not that they can't, but no cold burner is going to get a BIG pot of water to a rolling boil in a reasonable time, compared to a burner with twice as many BTUs. With some burners at 6800 and others at 11000 and that superburner at 17000...
Hey, I had a home stove that always had yellow flames on the burners, no matter how I adjusted them. With "municipal" piped gas. I finally called the gas company and they guessed it was simply so old, leftover from maybe 1940, that they thought it might have been designed for "coal gas" and it simply never would be able to make a modern blue flame. It has cold burners, no way to improve them.

Granted I've never boiled a corned beef or a really big pot of lobsters on a boat...but I've used some large pots and wee chilly burners just don't get them going in a reasonable time. They won't get a wok sizzling, they won't sear a steak in a cast iron pan, they' just adequate for the smaller lighter tasks. Which is fine if that floats your boat. But 5-6,000 but? Really? Just 'cause I can grill sushi over a Zippo lighter, doesn't mean that's a really great way to do it.

The old Coleman fuel (gasoline) stoves were around 7000 BTU each burner. Newer ones may run 10000 BTU.
 
#253 ·
Most marine propane stoves have a much smaller burner than do most home stoves.
But a good stove like a Force 10 is fast at bringing water to a boil or whatever it is you are cooking. Whether I am using an aluminum fry pan or a thick bottom stainless pot I have not ever cooked on a faster stove. Same for bringing the oven up to temp. I have not timed it but have used many stoves over the years - alcohol, kerosene, naptha (and electric in a house). I have never used a gas appliance on land, just in my boats.

I do know the time required to boil on the Wallas diesel cooktop I posted about earlier. It is rated at 6500 Btu. 2 quarts of tap temp water on a hot stove takes 12 minutes to boil.
 
#250 · (Edited)
I could never get a ROLLING boil on my pop down alcohol wick stove...a nice simmer yes...but I could barely do so on a propane range

not a force 5 but some cheap 3 burner oven combo

in any case it was fine for coco, coffee, ramen any canned soup...etc

there are tricks to make any stove and any fuel be hotter for example

on any open flame burner by making a shield out of copper preffereably that tightly surrounds the base of the pot or pan you increase the heat a lot, especially since wind and or cold air will not push away the flames

they sell kits for example for paella cooking tripods when used out in fields and this keeps the flames going nicely

just a thought for those of you with "low" btu burners...

same for ovens

by reducing the size of the inside area with heat resistant material or even using thin flat bricks as a hot plate you can mantain a much better heat and steady temp as well as decrease fuel consumption

cheers dudes
 
#251 ·
Origo has much more surface area burning alcohol than a wick-based alcohol stove. They really do perform pretty well and have no problem boiling a gallon or more of water in a reasonable amount of time. Their biggest problem is that they produce a single hot spot instead of a well distributed flame, so they work best with heavy pots. They do include a diffuser to help with this as well.
 
#254 ·
I was just cruising through craigslist and I found 5 or 6 PRESSURIZED alcohol stoves and not one propane stove oven combo...

wonder why?
wink wink

they were cheap too captainjack
 
#262 ·
thanks. but, i think i'll go non pressurized. it might cost me a little more than the pressurized systems people are trying to get rid of on craigslist but, it sounds like it's worth it.
 
#255 ·
I have no passion for what one prefers to have as galley fuel.

However, I will add to the chorus on the concern over alcohol fuel. As kids, our boat had an alcohol stove and my mother cautioned us to stay away from it 24/7, no matter what. It was an evil pariah aboard. The simple reason was that you couldn't see the flame. Lighting paper or a box or your clothing aflame is a genuine concern with alcohol. One may be extraordinarily careful or not have kids aboard or any guest to every worry about. To each their own.
 
#257 ·
However, I will add to the chorus on the concern over alcohol fuel. As kids, our boat had an alcohol stove and my mother cautioned us to stay away from it 24/7, no matter what.
That was almost certainly a pressurized alcohol stove. Besides the fuel these have nothing in common with the unpressurized ones. I don't think anyone in this thread has recommended a pressurized alcohol stove.
 
#256 ·
i have used propane since 1990 without problems and i have rarely used safety precaution of solenoid. just remember to turn off the gas before changing tanks.....
propane burns hotter than alcohol. try cooking abalone on alcohol..you WILL only have shoe rubber. btd..


and i never cook safes.....they get too hot ....cannot open them when too hot....
 
#263 ·
i have used propane since 1990 without problems and i have rarely used safety precaution of solenoid. just remember to turn off the gas before changing tanks.....
propane burns hotter than alcohol. try cooking abalone on alcohol..you WILL only have shoe rubber. btd..

and i never cook safes.....they get too hot ....cannot open them when too hot....
good one. :laugher

i never cook abalone.
 
#261 ·
Yes, you could "add something" but then you'd probably have questions about corrosion, clogging, "Stove fuel only!" at higher prices because it couldn't be safely used for something else. Health concerns about combustion products. What a can of sterno. Ergh, worms.

A yellow flame, as in unpressurized alky burners, is the classic sign of incomplete combustion. And a "cold" flame. Nothing to be proud of.
 
#264 · (Edited)
those intending to cruise to mexico and other places should research the availability of stove fuel.
mexico does not allow kerosene nor alcohol for stove fuel . only propane, which is readily available everywhere. if you try to transport kero over border, it will be taken from you.

btw, brent sain, alcohol fire flames are difficult to see. when something or someone is on fire with alcohol fuel as the accelerant, it is not visible, except for the blisters being made on the skin or in the paint of the race car or in the fiberglass inside the boat.
the formosa i bought had had 5 galley fires before i bought and changed the non pressurized alcohol stove.
when i watched po of my ericson light a 3 ft tall flame in the ericson i ultimately bought, i decided then and there to convert to propane. is much safer.
try adding fuel to a burner of an alcohol stove while in a seaway while underway with following or quartering 8-12 ft seas.... i dare ye..is how 5 pos burned this formosa...
enjoy .
 
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