gate valve won't close - 1977 Newport 28 - Page 4 - SailNet Community
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post #31 of 39 Old 04-15-2014
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Re: gate valve won't close - 1977 Newport 28

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Originally Posted by Shinook View Post
I can attest to that! We spent over $1100 on 3 seacocks and 2 thru hulls from them. They are of great quality, but really expensive.

I've had good luck finding Wilcox valves for cheap, although it can be a little challenging to get the right sizes.
Tapered cones can outlast the boat BUT we no longer live in the "steam boiler" generation where folks had any sort of mechanical aptitude or common sense. I see tapered cones DESTROYED by freeze ups, lack of maintenance etc. on a far more regular basis today then in my dad's or grandfathers generation where they had no problem servicing the seacocks (insert steam boiler), regularly....

Today, in the microwave/remote control/instant gratification age, people want out of sight, out of mind and that just does not work with tapered cones... A yearly re-grease is simply too much to ask from most boat owners these days, thus ball valves have become the norm.......

A ball valve will not outlast a well maintained tapered cone but sadly most owners don't "well maintain" tapered cone seacocks any more....

If I had a dime for every tapered cone owner who has emailed me asking if a cheaper/wheel bearing grease is okay or if a squirt of WD-40 would work, I'd be retired..... Maintain them properly as they should be and they will outlast the boat... Don't maintain them and they will severely dent the wallet...
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post #32 of 39 Old 04-15-2014
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Re: gate valve won't close - 1977 Newport 28

Wow.. this, like so many other threads really takes off!

Back to the OP.. I think one thing no one seems to have mentioned is the weakness of the hull around the thru hull fitting!

It only takes a few pounds of effort to "tear" a valve (of any type out) of the old glass that is most likely wet & weak from 20-40 years of the edges of the hole not being sealed when the boat was built. This more often then not, why thru hulls need replacement.. mechanically they last quite long. (even gate valves)

It's the "hole on the hull" that needs to be addressed.

Denise, Bristol PA, Oday 30. On Tidal Delaware River, Anchor Yacht Club.
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post #33 of 39 Old 04-15-2014
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Re: gate valve won't close - 1977 Newport 28

Many gate valves installed in the 70's were not a proper marine bronze alloy.. They can become extremely brittle......

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post #34 of 39 Old 04-15-2014
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Re: gate valve won't close - 1977 Newport 28

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Many gate valves installed in the 70's were not a proper marine bronze alloy.. They can become extremely brittle......
"Honey the valve won't close"

Denise, Bristol PA, Oday 30. On Tidal Delaware River, Anchor Yacht Club.
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post #35 of 39 Old 04-15-2014
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Re: gate valve won't close - 1977 Newport 28

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Originally Posted by deniseO30 View Post
Back to the OP.. I think one thing no one seems to have mentioned is the weakness of the hull around the thru hull fitting!

It only takes a few pounds of effort to "tear" a valve (of any type out) of the old glass that is most likely wet & weak from 20-40 years of the edges of the hole not being sealed when the boat was built. This more often then not, why thru hulls need replacement.. mechanically they last quite long. (even gate valves)

It's the "hole on the hull" that needs to be addressed.
I disagree strongly with that, having installed through hulls below the waterline and other items above on many boats. Even 1/4" of old glass is very strong and I have never seen a hull that thin below the waterline.
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post #36 of 39 Old 04-15-2014
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Re: gate valve won't close - 1977 Newport 28

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I disagree strongly with that, having installed through hulls below the waterline and other items above on many boats. Even 1/4" of old glass is very strong and I have never seen a hull that thin below the waterline.
But, I know you won't be taking a 24" wrench to one and pulling it sideways to break the valve core loose right? I'm sure it's happened!

Denise, Bristol PA, Oday 30. On Tidal Delaware River, Anchor Yacht Club.
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post #37 of 39 Old 04-15-2014
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Re: gate valve won't close - 1977 Newport 28

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
The 93 series are strong valves but keep in mind my testing was DAM or "dry as molded"... These valves can loose quite a bit of strength after being submerged. Still DAM pull tests are impressive.

One pitfall of the 93 series is that when the handle comes off, and they have, the o-ring gets spit out and the boat can flood. While rare it does and has happened. There is but one teeny tiny screw threaded into nylon that is between you and the open ocean. People wet their pants over much less but a single teeny, tiny screw into plastic between you and the deep blue and no one seems to care...??? Go figure....

The other point, with the 93 series, is the ID of the thru-hull is NOT the same as any other seacock due to the thickness of the thru-hull fitting needed for the strength to pass ABYC standards.. They can only be used with the 93 series thru-hull. They usually need to be up-sized because the ID is smaller and thus they are not "full flow"....

The third point to consider is availability. You can special order them but they are not a "stock" item for most marine stores.

The best feature of Marelon is is resistance to corrosion.
Yes, I digested all the pro/cons. Your info was very helpful.

I'm in the process of replacing my 30 year old jammed Groco ball valve over through hulls with Marelon 93 seacocks. They are not readily available (built to order), 2-3 week lead time, etc. All mounted in very well protected areas.

I'll let you know who it goes.
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post #38 of 39 Old 04-16-2014
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Re: gate valve won't close - 1977 Newport 28

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Originally Posted by ReefMagnet View Post
There's a chance the through hull can rotate rather than the valve unscrew leading to more problems. Worst case scenario is that the through hull itself could fracture from the forces involved trying to unscrew a valve that's been in place forever.
I tried to replace a 30 year old ball valve attached to a through hull for my head a few months back while still in the water. I hopped over the side, tapped a wooden bung in from the outside and put a wrench on the ball valve. Things were going much easier than i thought they would--the ball valve was turning. The, all of a sudden, the valve came off and left me with a 2" wide geyser of water to chin level! Oh ****, mon! Luckily, i had set a bigger bung and mallet next to the head, just in case. A couple of taps and the flow was stemmed. But ofr a brief second there, I WAS SINKING.

That episode led to another adventure to replace the through hull while dried out. On a side note, I went with a Marelon fitting because I couldn't find a decent brass fitting in Bay of Islands, all GRP. I was hesitant at first but it seems very well built and no electrolosis problems (which is what i suspect softened the old bronse through hull).

Much better to do this out of the water!



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post #39 of 39 Old 04-20-2014
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Re: gate valve won't close - 1977 Newport 28

I have a 70 N27 with a gate valve seacock on the intake to my A4. After we purchased it, we read a lot of forums and I was concerned about it not closing. So I added a 6" brass nipple with a ball valve above it and then reattached the intake line to the A4 water pump. It may not be kosher but we sail on a freshwater lake and it's never failed. We exercise it every time we go out and we've had no problems but for sanity's sake I know I could just close the ball valve and when we leave it in the slip with both valves closed, I never have to worry about it.
We probably should replace it but on a boat for which we paid $3500, it's not a high priority given we just sunk almost a grand in deck and bottom paint. We find the desire to fix everything is brought up short by the naked reality of the checkbook.
But my idea might be a good temp fix for those wanting to wait until the end of the season to do a right repair.
Happy sailing.

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Honoring S/Sgt Glenn English, Jr, Congressional Medal of Honor for heroism that cost his life in Viet Nam, 9/7/70.
Newport 27 built 1970-Hull # N270088
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