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post #21 of 27 Old 05-20-2014
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Re: How much rust is too much?

I went synthetic a couple of years ago, still happy with it. Some club members claimed it wouldn't last a year..still looking like new. I used WR2, because I liked the idea of a UV/chafe resistant cover over the dyeema.

I also was worried about the splices, bit mine ended up sewn in in 3 places (towards the end of the tail, near the throat of the splice, and again to secure the cover) so I reckon as long as you follow the recommendations for a long tail it should be fine.

The initial cost was similar to wire, but the difference is that any end-fittings you use can be reused when you replace the line (e.g. thimbles)- unlike wire, where everything swaged is thrown away.
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Re: How much rust is too much?

I did more research last night. Seems I keep coming across Colligo Marine info, which is good, and also prior posts on Sailnet, which indicate that people have been happy with Dyneema Dux. This heat annealing process of Dux lessens the amount of shrinkage tremendously over regular Dyneema or Spectra. The strength, comfort when falling into the lifelines and the ability to splice new lines whenever I might need, are all very appealing. UV seems to be a problem most significantly in the first year or two, which drops the strength values, so that is why it is recommend to go with a larger initial size than you would have with steel. There's also a weight issue with steel on larger boats, but the steel lifelines I just pulled off don't seem to weigh all that much for this to really make a big difference. Without knowing exactly what I needed, the rigging shop had quoted me $700-1000 for SS wire and fittings. From looking online, 5 mm Dux is probably going to be around $500 and 7 mm $700, so not a huge cost savings. I'm heading to the rigger in a little bit to find out more. I definitely appreciate all the feedback here! It's nice to have other voices in my head while I'm working through something like this.
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post #23 of 27 Old 05-20-2014 Thread Starter
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Re: How much rust is too much?

Well, I did it. First, I walked my dock looking at everyone's lifelines. Of the 30+ boats, all but a few had vinyl-covered lifelines with rust at the edges; one that races a lot had bare SS and two had Dyneema, with a good bit of sag. I talked to two riggers, one of them was backlogged at least 2 weeks, even for ordering new SS lifelines. He only had Dyneema in stock and his main concerns were stretch and stiffness. When I told him that I was leaning toward annealed instead, he thought that would be better, though he still did not recommend converting SS to synthetic. This is a shop that has probably the highest quality riggers in the SF area, so that opinion carries a lot of weight, but I recognize sailors are traditionalists and this is a relatively new thing. I like to buck tradition, so maybe my mind was made up at that point, but I still wanted to get more input. Next, I went to West Marine's rigger. He had Dyneema in stock as well as covered Dyneema, which is stiffer and has more UV protection, but the max size was 5 mm, so the core is smaller than that. This won't work for ISAF and NCORC offshore racing requirements. When I got home, I called Calligo Marine. He spent a good bit of time answering all my questions about stretch, proper splicing, stiffness, turnbuckles versus lashings, etc. I seriously doubt that I'm just a sucker for a good sales pitch, but I really was sold by this point. In addition to the support I received, they have great videos on their website on splicing and they're based on the West Coast. (I had called CS Johnson in Connecticut, too, but their office was already closed at 1400 Pacific Time.) I haven't received a quote yet, but I suspect DD is going to come out a few hundred less than SS. The decrease in weight is going to be negligible, but the ability to do the work myself and have spares on hand are some of the benefits. So...that was the decision-making process. Overall, I think SS and DD are pretty well balanced in their attributes, which is probably why it was so hard for me to decide. What probably tipped the balance and appealed to me is experimenting with a new method. Maybe after seeing how it wears over time, how often I need to reset the lashings, and how future research pans out, I'll go back to SS after using Dux, but that'll be another post at least 5 years from now....
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post #24 of 27 Old 05-20-2014
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Re: How much rust is too much?

John at Colligio is a good guy who will set you up right. I did business with him (as a supplier for a while), and have his rigging on my trimaran.

He is going to go with Duc, and his terminals which is the best way I know to build them. I frankly find it overkill since at the bend radiuses lifelines see I don't think the terminals are necessary. But I certainly wouldn't criticize this method.

Once the Duc's terminals are purchased they are reusable forever since they are made from anodized aluminium instead of stainless, so you don't have to worry about corrosion.
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post #25 of 27 Old 05-23-2014
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Spoke with a rigger here at Airlie Beach Australia. Check with the latest rules, as clear covered stainless is now exceptable here.

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post #26 of 27 Old 05-24-2014
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Re: How much rust is too much?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonV View Post
Spoke with a rigger here at Airlie Beach Australia. Check with the latest rules, as clear covered stainless is now exceptable here.
It my be legal, but it isn't acceptable. The close fit coating acts like a wick to suck water up. While rust is a good indication of corrosion it isn't always present.

There is a reason why every ocean racing organization requires uncovered wire or synthetic. Why Beneteau won't sell you a boat with coated wire. Some insurance companies are now treating coated wire as making the boat non-sea worthy.

I did some research and again, the lifelines may be legal, but you can't have them if you want to do the Sydney-Hobart which requires conformity with ISAF safety regulations. Or the Hamilton Island Race Week, or for that matter any other distance race held in Australia all of which prohibit coated wire.

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post #27 of 27 Old 05-24-2014 Thread Starter
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Re: How much rust is too much?

Enclosing the stainless and not allowing air to circulate is clearly a problem. I'm really surprised that there isn't more of a call for older boats to remove the covering - not just for boats racing offshore. I saw this response about clear coating on another forum that was posted 10 years ago:

The current recommended install and ORC requirement is bare lines. This is because the lines can't be properly inspected for corrosion and failures. The PVC coating also holds water in close contact with the stainless steel wire in an anerobic environment. This will exacerbate crevice corrosion even in fresh water (just much slower there). On my last boat, I replaced the lines with ones having a clear coating. Within six weeks I could see rust stains (saltwater) even in the middle of the run. Use a box cutter with a hooked blade and strip the old coating comepletely off.
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