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  #11  
Old 05-27-2014
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Re: Best filtration for freshwater: just particles, or carbon too

How would you do this in a boat? Are there any vendors?
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  #12  
Old 05-27-2014
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Re: Best filtration for freshwater: just particles, or carbon too

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Helpful info- thanks all. Presently using a whole vehicle system with type B 3M filter ( carry two spares). Shock and flush system annually and add bleach at fill ups. We carry 200g and except when in my own slip pre-filtering is not logistically possible. Fresh water vents are above various sinks in boat and do not have in line filters. Have two water tanks. When in areas of high infectious diarrhea or other pathogens will use R.O. water from a tank dedicated to sinks and collect some in galleon jugs for chilled drinking water. Problem is the lines to showers, wash down etc. can also back feed sinks. This will force wasting water as will need to run water briefly before using it for drinking or brushing teeth etc. However, can't see a workable way around this.
The 3m filters are also used in RVs so commonly available at reasonable cost.
Straight diet of beer will make me fatter and dumber than I am already so this seems a reasonable compromise.
Suggest you check with your former place of employment as they are or should be soon in the process of adding 'end point filtration' to all spigots, showerheads, etc.

For a possible solution to water wastage from showers - thermally operated 12vdc solenoid valves to tank return, go to: Marine or RV water save.
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Old 05-27-2014
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Re: Best filtration for freshwater: just particles, or carbon too

Carbon as rich said is good food

On are DI water units which produce 40 gallons per minute the carbon is step one and has to be backwashed two nights pre week to remain clean

1. 5 micron
2. carbon bed
3. 5 micron for carbon fines
4. anion and cation resin beds
5.5 micron for resin fines
6. UV CHAMBER
7 .02 micron microbial filter

Of this crazy list the coolest stuff you can by off the shelf NOW is low power requirement UV purification for backpacking
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Re: Best filtration for freshwater: just particles, or carbon too

Is the carbon "good food" or do the bacterium thrive on other compounds and materials absorbed to there surface? Given that fire char is quite durable in the environment and that granulated carbon is not very compostable, I assume it is the former. Most filter media are vulnerable this way, though the great depth and surface area of carbon make the problem more severe.

I've not been able to find much independent work on KDF (a copper/zinc alloy with some interesting behavior) media. Typically it is combined with carbon because there are some things it does better, and because it prevents infection of the carbon (a claim which EPA seems to accept). Unfortunately, like much of what goes on with carbon (combined adsorptive and catalytic processes), many of the mechanism are guessed at. You could say they are deduced from evidence and our understanding of chemistry, but seems to be a reach.

UV is interesting, but there are some challenges. I would like to hear the answers. I'm not sure how practical this is on a boat.
a. You could treat the tank, but that does nothing for the pipes.
b. You can treat the tap, but the lamps need a 20-30 second warm-up period. Most folks won't want to wait. Leaving it on is not practical because of the current draw.
c. UV is going to destroy plastic parts if the exposure is continuous. This is short wave UV, more damaging than sunlight. Just something to remember.
d. You're going to need some interlocks. Folks aren't going to clean the bulb sleeve unless they have to.

I don't think the "no filtration while loading" is the best approach. I fully understand the practicalities of time, but I've seen too much gook come from pipes; the more gook, the less chance I have of controlling growth in the tank. I started this thread in search of a middle ground with a rational behind it. In my mind the tank WILL become infected and the goal should be to minimize the amount of gook and biomass, so that down stream drinking water systems are not over loaded, and so that the water is still useable for bathing and such. Avoiding dead stink bugs, wasps, and gook from the inside of marina hoses and plumbing are the goal.
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Re: Best filtration for freshwater: just particles, or carbon too

PDQ has it right in my view. Issue is how far to take it. Very familiar with UV in medical setting but agree current systems not practical on a boat. Have thought about having just one on fresh water foot pump that's at the galley sink leaving the rest of the boat "whole boat filtered" but even this would be a chore. Rather for now just run the hose awhile fill a glass and look at it. The put it down and wait awhile. Look at it again. If not questionable to the look and smell test a sip and rinse. If still good fill her up. One of the issues not attended to often enough I think is stagnant tanks and plumbing. So the great thing about 200g is usually can bypass questionable water. The bad thing is you can have stagnant water if you don't flush your tanks whenever you get a chance and run water through all your plumbing.
Talking about flushes good to remember for those flushing their heads with fresh water is to avoid using heavily bleached water through your heads if you don't want to be replacing joker and duckbill valves all the time.
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Re: Best filtration for freshwater: just particles, or carbon too

Oh BTW when I was talking about water wasting I was referring the wasted water that occurs as you wait to flush the plumbing before use. Even got the bride to rinse-off- soap- rinse -off. a solenoid isn't a really that helpful.
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Re: Best filtration for freshwater: just particles, or carbon too

PDQ,

What are the goals of your filtration system? If I recall, you aren't cruising in third world areas, but you did mention that you're not on a municipal supply. Many systems, to my view, are built because people like the peace of mind that they get from having filtered water but usually, the water they're filtering is "clean enough" to begin with, at least from an infectious disease point of view.

Are you trying to decrease the chance of waterborne illness? Improve taste? Why not just get your well water tested and if it tests well, just let the low ph of your stomach do the sterilizing for you?

MedSailor
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Re: Best filtration for freshwater: just particles, or carbon too

A camelback all clear can do batch's in 60 something seconds and fit in your pack and make 80 cycles with its built in battery

How the hard part done how hard could it be to scale up a bit

Has the All Clear system been tested and validated by an independent laboratory? The All Clear unit has been thoroughly tested by a US EPA approved independent lab to ensure that it meets or exceeds the EPA standards for microbiological water purification devices. The results of the All Clear third party testing demonstrated that the unit reduced bacteria by 99.9999%, viruses by 99.99% and protozoan cysts by 99.9%. All Clear purifies water not only to stringent EPA standards, but to CamelBakís uncompromising standards of safety and performance. - See more at: CamelBak | All Clear UV Purification FAQS
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  #19  
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Re: Best filtration for freshwater: just particles, or carbon too

Quote:
Originally Posted by MedSailor View Post
PDQ,

What are the goals of your filtration system? If I recall, you aren't cruising in third world areas, but you did mention that you're not on a municipal supply. Many systems, to my view, are built because people like the peace of mind that they get from having filtered water but usually, the water they're filtering is "clean enough" to begin with, at least from an infectious disease point of view.

Are you trying to decrease the chance of waterborne illness? Improve taste? Why not just get your well water tested and if it tests well, just let the low ph of your stomach do the sterilizing for you?

MedSailor
You are on-target. Specifically, the Chesapeake area abounds with wells that are impacted by brackish water. Not so much that the salt is an issue, but enough that the sulfate can lead to sulfide if given the right circumstances. Keeping the tank clean is generally enough. I filter what I put in and I clean and dry the tank each fall; that has worked for me, but my wife would like better, and some of my dock-mates without these practices get some real stink going. I'm going to add a vent strainer (easy solution to a few bugs some years) and most likely some additional step, but I'm still weighing options. It will be something in a standard size--I hate proprietary fit stuff.

As an engineer I fully recognize that system design is based on needs--from a health perspective, mine are very small. But I also did not intend to discuss the whole system in the thread, just the question of weather using carbon is a plus or a minus when filling. The reason is that all of the hose-end filters are either carbon/particle or carbon/KDF/particle. They are handy for a small boat, though the contact time is so limited I'm sure function is too (I use a flow limiting orifice plate in mine).
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  #20  
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Re: Best filtration for freshwater: just particles, or carbon too

^^ The "All Clear" is a neat idea that is certainly functions for travelers. There is a pen using the same principle that has been well tested. Simple.

If I were traveling in really pestilential locations UV would be high on my list. All of the challenges are solvable. The problem I have with all of the systems I have seen is some impracticality of operation (they either stay on or they lack a warm-up interlock). But I'd need a health reason I do not have.
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