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Red over Green Navigation Light

28K views 53 replies 26 participants last post by  GlanRock 
#1 ·
Does anyone actually have a red over green navigation light (as allowed for in Rule 25) to indicate a vessel under sail at night?

Am considering installing this, but have never seen one set up. Short of rigging something up myself, anyone know where you can get one? If you have this kind of set up, how did you do it?
 
#2 ·
Never mind - I searched for this topic before posting, but found nothing pertinent. After posting, the thread appeared in the related topics. Apologies.
 
#3 · (Edited)
While in the Navy, we memorized the phrase "red over green, sailing machine" to identify sailboats.

Honestly, I think here in the US it would just confuse people, especially powerboaters.
A competent commercial vessel watch officer would be more likely to recognize it, I think.

Edit-
Some earlier posts have SailingDog harping about a 1 meter separation between them. I found this in the COLREGS:

Paragraph (c) presents an optional display that is much less popular that the "tricolor" light but that can be employed on sailing vessels over (as well as under) twenty meters. The all-round red over all-round green light are to be used with the regular sidelights and sternlight. Annex I requires that the red and green lights be mounted vertically two meters apart for vessels over 20 meters and one meter apart for smaller vessels. This arrangement makes it difficult not to obstruct the arc of visibility of the lower green all-round light, so this option will probably rarely be seen.
The one meter separation rule seems odd when you can buy this:
http://www.perko.com/catalog/category/navigation_lights_under_20_meters/product/895/
 
#6 ·
A competent commercial vessel watch officer would be more likely to recognize it, I think.
Stress "competent". There have been a number times I have been mistaken for a fishing vessel when showing sidelights and a stern light only.
 
#5 ·
From the post preceding yours:

The all-round red over all-round green light are to be used with the regular sidelights and sternlight.
In theory, the combination of the mast illumination with standard side lights should eliminate confusion. As a practical matter, probably not, particularly in any sea where the side lights might not be seen very well or at all. Accordingly, we rely upon the masthead tri-color light.

FWIW...
 
#9 · (Edited)
I have a red-over-green configuration (Nav Rule 25c) on my Pearson Ariel. I have had some unlicensed recreational boaters ask me what it meant, but everyone who holds a USCG license should recognize the configuration. After all, they had to score 90% or better on the Rules of the Road test to get their license, which includes the light configurations.

I find it VERY useful for a small vessel such as mine. When viewing my vessel from astern at night out in the ocean - devoid of a moon or city lights to illuminate my sails - there is no way to discern that mine is a sailing vessel from the single white stern light. A tri-color light at the masthead still wouldn't identify my vessel as a sailboat at a distance. The only indication that my boat is not a motor vessel is the absence of a white masthead ("steaming") light -- which would never be visible from astern.

I believe the main reason (besides ignorance of the configuration) for avoidance of the Rule 25c optional configuration is the extra power requirements of running three lights at deck level plus two more red/green lights up on the mast. But the extra visibility of the lights at elevation justifies the added power consumption - especially using LEDs, and the red/green lights on the mast can be legally turned off at the skipper's discretion.

I sail in Monterey Bay, California. There are lots of commercial fishing boats out at night, and a moonless night is very dark - no city lights. In the usual 4 to 6 foot swells, my deck-level lights are obscured by the swells about half the time. It seems to me the adage should be: the smaller the boat - the bigger the lights.

The fact that the lights have to be vertically separated by (at least) one meter probably explains why nobody makes them. I had to build my own configuration using a red all-around light at the masthead and four green (starboard) navigation lights one meter down on the mast. If you find someone who manufactures something, please let me know. I never found anything pre-made.
 
#31 ·
The fact that the lights have to be vertically separated by (at least) one meter probably explains why nobody makes them. I had to build my own configuration using a red all-around light at the masthead and four green (starboard) navigation lights one meter down on the mast. If you find someone who manufactures something, please let me know. I never found anything pre-made.
What make/model of green lights did you use?

Here is the Lopolight Product details



Wonder if one could use two of theses?
Installed upside down underneath the mast steps close to the top of my mast.
Would reflection from the mast a problem, and could it be prevented?
 
#10 ·
This disucssion is news to me. This west marine link makes no reference to this:
Navigation Light Rules | West Marine

I'll say that regulations have always confused me a bit, as the perscribed solution in that link above lets you use deck level colored lights and a single stern light while sailing - identical to a powerboat.

For my first season I sailed around with the 360 masthead light on, but eventually realized I wasn't technically supposed to, despite the fact that without it, nothing defines me as a sailboat at night..
 
#11 ·
For my first season I sailed around with the 360 masthead light on, but eventually realized I wasn't technically supposed to, despite the fact that without it, nothing defines me as a sailboat at night..
asdf: What defines you as a sailboat at night is the lack of a steaming light. Rule 25c of the COLREGs gives a sailing vessel the option to show an all around red light over an all around green light in addition to the other navigation lights required. In the case of a sail boat, that would be port light, starboard light, and stern light.

To say that showing your anchor light while underway is "technically" incorrect is itself technically incorrect. Doing so is just plain incorrect.
 
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#13 ·
its always good to have the rules of the road book or the colregs little leaflets they used to sell...

in any case I agree, the smaller the boat the more the skipper should do to make his boat visible, for obvious reasons like sea state, and the smallness factor, low freeboard etc...
 
#14 ·
I hope all the NEW boats i bought were built right :)

BUT my powerboats had the red/green bow with the separation to allow direction of travel to be understood with a white all around which ALSO served as and anchor light

My sailboats came with more or less the same bow lighting BUT tend to have a smaller white light on the stern a steaming light on the mast and and anchor light on the masthead


A LOT of the small powerboat white all around lights are JUST STUPID because they absolutely ensure night vision problems
 
#15 ·
I've come to associate red over green with BIG sailing machines, because that's the only place I've seen them.

Since you aren't allowed a pizza pie light (mast head red/green/white combo) on an over 20 meter boat, I always figured that the big guys choose the all around red over green as a way to get some lights up high for offshore extended visibility.

My own thinking on my little craft is that the pie light is for offshore, and the deck nav lights are for near shore/harbor calmer conditions. You cannot turn the pie and the deck level nav lights on at the same time, but you do turn on the red over green with deck level nav lights...advantage to the red over green sailing machine. I can figure out what you are and where you're going if I'm near to you or far away.

Never thought about red over green on my little sailing machine, but I can't find a rule that says you cannot. Interesting idea.
 
#17 ·
There are so many light configurations, I don't trust I can remember them all. Keeping a readily accessible graphic card of the different combinations comes in handy as well as a sound signal graphic. Can't recall ever seeing a red over green all-round sailboat combination like that. I just keep my normal running lights on although I can definitely see the logic in being identified as under sail. As far as being seen in swells, a masthead tricolor makes a lot of sense. If the price of led tricolors would come down, I would certainly install one.
 
#18 ·
I thought about installing red-over-green on my boat; my research found that Lopolight make 180 degree green sp in theory an all-round red at the top with a green on each side of the mast 1 m down would work. Stacking the red with their 180 white anchor light would make a very neat - but expensive - installation.

I'd probably do it ... if I sailed more at night.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
#21 ·
In my opinion, the masthead tricolor is the most dangerous light array on the ocean. It is only a single, disembodied light waving around in the sky, giving no indication of distance away or the size of the vessel.
Passing through the Anagada Passage on a freighter, I nearly ran down a sailing vessel, because of this and have detested them ever since. From the bridge wing (50 feet up) I assumed the light was a mile or so away, but I didn't even get to the radar in the wheelhouse, before the light slipped by the open wheelhouse door. I was awake, sober and aware of the light, but had no idea at all, how far it was from me.
The red over green makes great deal more sense and is certainly presents a lot more information, when shown in conjunction with the standard running lights.
 
#23 · (Edited)
I see your point. But, sailing vessels nearly always only show one light to you, except for a very small overlap where the sectors meet. Furthermore, ANY boat or ship (except those required to show additional all-round lights, fishing vessels, tugs etc) is required to only show a single light from the stern. Assuming random crossing angles, this occurs on average for more than one-third of all crossing/meeting situations since the stern sector (where only the white stern light is visible) is more than 1/3 of 360 degrees (115-245 degs). I know the angles at which ships meet are not randomly distributed so a grain of salt should be taken with this but I am puzzled why a professional mariner would be confused because just a single light is visible.
 
#22 ·
I hate tricolors too...they show absolutely no depth or size of vessel and again its 1 light

fwiw my h28 that I cruised on had HUGE wooden and bronze running lights that were beatifully made and hung high on top of the pulpit. same goes for stern light....

compared to other boats of my size and those even bigger I was very very very visible, clear view to them and never unseen.

some of the new stuff was so small I hated trying to figure out what the hell it was...of course after cruising a while we learned what was what for the area we where in and continued on...however I routinely got weird looks and comments about the size of my running lights...

mostly from modern cruisers and sailors...who thought it ridiculous they were so big

anywhoo
 
#24 ·
The problem with masthead tricolor lights is that their 'power'/lumens is usually only to the MINIMUM visibility for CG approved lighting. Its really hard to find BULBS, especially in low amps draw LED format, that can provide the intensity output of the lighting used on commercial, etc. usage of more than ~2 miles.
When speaking to shipping on the open ocean and at distances much further than 2 miles, most report that they simply cannot SEE me ... and then I have to light up with deck lights, spreader lights, bow and stern lights, etc. The danger of the typical tricolors is the damn LOW light intensity and poor 'brilliance' !!!!!!! ... as no one at any 'reasonable' distance can see them.
 
#29 ·
Looking good


I rarely sail without having a reef taken in, so obstruction of the green lights is seldom an issue.
The reason I asked about how it look with sails fully hoisted is that I'm considering a similar installation, some argue that the sails would obstruct the light, I'm thinking that it's not a real problem.

Lopolight is the only one making the 180 degree lights, the Norwegian distributor is not importing these and could not understand why I would this configuration.

Had a mail exchange with lopolight a while back, the response was that sails obstructing was not an issue.

We memorize the same mnemonic for a master's license: "red over green, sailing machine." Any USCG licensed mariner should recognize the configuration.
I'm not afraid that amateurs would not recognize the red over green together with deck level lights - they would probably think it's a "mean machine"...
 
#32 ·
I wouldn't worry about reflection on the mast. You'd only notice from a boat length or so away. If anything the reflection might help project the light, but I don't know how shiny your mast is to make a difference.. From a few miles those two lights and their reflection will look like one

I don't see why two of those wouldn't work though.

- Ronnie...on the geaux
 
#44 ·
If this little conversation has done nothing else it has reinforced my suspicions about the quality of instructors at sailing schools. I don't doubt that some of them are pretty good, but this thread has demonstrated (to me, anyway) that many are not.
 
#45 · (Edited)




In regular racing going back to 1981 both distance up to 200 something and local with a LOT of night finishes

1. never recall seeing the red over green ?
2.never had a problem seeing the other boats during are regular tacking duels which require a dozens of crossings with 40 something boats ?
 
#49 · (Edited)
Y'all are making much ado about nothing on the visibility issue of these lights. As shown in this pic of Westward, the lights are mounted on one side of the mast, but obviously fulfill the requirements. This is the normal way NUC, towing and sailing lights are mounted on most vessels. In this case I believe there are also NUC lights up there.
Take a look at the commercial vessels when out sailing, and you'll get a good idea of the practical application of the black on white writing in a rule book.
 

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#51 ·
Lots of good posts here. I'd LOVE LOVE LOVE to see more red over green all around lights. There have been several misinterpretations of the USCG COLREGS in this thread. Doing copy/pastes, while helpful, immediately makes the information old. Additionally, going to re-printed information on the West Marine website is also old. The USCG maintains the Rules of the Road COLREGS right on their website, and that should be the one stop shop for all Rules related questions and ambiguities.

There was some banter about lights spacing: 1m, 2m. That's pretty specific, so I'm guessing that came from the ANNEX in the back. Someone find me this detail about the spacing of all red over all green.

(and here I am retyping stuff just like I said we shouldn't)
Rule 25 "Sailing Vessels Underway and Vessels Under Oars"
paragraph (b) says a vessel less than 20m may carry a combined light, the "pie" near the top of the mast where it can best be seen.
paragraph (c) rules say "may" so the red over green are optional. if you use the pie light, you can't use red over green.

all round white lite
Couple things here. Lights you carry can't be confused with any other lights (Rule 20 paragraph (b) ).
If you're real small, sailing vessel or vessel under oars, less than 7m, you CAN display an all around white light. So that right there is confused with other lights isn't it?! Specifically the Anchor Light, Rule 30 "Anchored vessels and vessels aground," an all around white light where it can best be seen, the forepart of the vessel. Less than 50m/150ft you only need one Anchor Light where it can best be seen (paragraph (b) )

From the first page, there was a copy/paste @Ajax_MD paragraph (c) from Annex 1. Not sure where you got that. The word "tricolor" isn't anywhere in the current Rules of the Road. I'd look in Annex 1, part 2 "Vertical positioning and spacing of lights." In fact, putting a big space between the red over green sailing lights might make it more confusing.

@asdf38 you can sail around with your all around white light on, if your vessel is less than 7m/21ft ( Rule 25(d)(i) )

I disagree that lights higher up are necessary for better visibility in ocean swells. It's true that the lights will only be visible occasionally because of swells. But, being out there, I'd prefer a brighter steadier light at deck level that's occasionally visible, than a dim pie light flying back and forth at 20mph.

Can't find who said what here but it's important to know that you're either a: sail boat, or a power boat. As far as the Rules go, there is no "sail boat under power." The moment you turn on your engine, you're under power, and should display the masthead light (225deg centerline, Rule 21 (a) Definitions for Masthead Light ). As a power driven vessel, you also fall into that category of passing arrangements with other vessels.

Really good discussion here on the finer points of Rules of the Road!
 
#52 ·
There was some banter about lights spacing: 1m, 2m. That's pretty specific, so I'm guessing that came from the ANNEX in the back. Someone find me this detail about the spacing of all red over all green.
So in the Annex, Section 84.03 - it says:
(i) When the Rules prescribe two or three lights to be carried in a vertical line, they shall be spaced as follows:
(i) on a vessel of 20 meters in length or more such lights shall be spaced not less than 2 meters apart, and the lowest of these lights shall, except where a towing light is required, be placed at a height of not less than 4 meters above the hull;
(ii) on a vessel of less than 20 meters in length such lights shall be spaced not less than 1 meter apart and the lowest of these lights shall, except where a towing light is required, be placed at a height of not less than 2 meters above the gunwale;
(iii) when three lights are carried they shall be equally spaced.
 
#53 ·
The regulations say that the red over green "sailing machine" is optional to add to the navigation ligts for a sailboat or sailing vessel. I got to see this when sailing Cutty Sark Tall Ship Races, Antwerp to Aalesund in 2002. It is much easier to identify a sailing vessel under sail from other motor boats, fishing vessels and oil industry vessels. I have searched for a plug and play solution which can replace the tricolor and to be low consumption LED without success.
 
#54 ·
Interesting how folks create an account to make a single post on a long dead thread... 3 in a row in this case.
 
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