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The WTF challenge!

6K views 52 replies 24 participants last post by  ReefMagnet 
#1 ·
Details of the events surrounding these pictures are intentionally vague (for now) but it appears there may be good news on the horizon and soon I may be less vague about what's going on. Oh, and why I'm calling it the WTF challenge should be fairly self explanatory when you see the photos below....

SO! How would YOU go about removing these gnadgered-up studs? What they appear to be (or were) is 316 stainless machine screws with a phillips head. I can access the back side of some, perhaps all of them, and they appear to be threaded into stainless sleeves which are epoxied into the solid fiberglass deck. Oh, how I wish this was addressed correctly in the beginning before the bolts were all gnadgered up, but it wasn't, so this is what I have.

I haven't really tried to remove them yet. All I've tried so far is applying Kroll penetrating oil once, and I put a vice grip on them and was unable to get them to budge. The yard says they tried to budge them (not so sure about how hard they tried) and say they can not be easily removed.

A prize will go to the person who has the idea/technique that will successfully remove these bolts!





MedSailor
 
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#3 ·
Med,

My symphaties!

You should use a knocking machine :) Not sure what the name is in english, but a machine that knocks at the same time as it turns the screw.
Such are sometimes used when chaning tyres, something I do twice a year.

Prior to attacing you should apply copious amounts of oil or whatever. It always helps, at least somewhat.
If you can, try to apply some heat (you can) and some cold (ice, frozen Nitrogen) in order to get the metall to expand and contract. This should be repeated many times. And oil, did I say that?

With this, I succeeded to remove stainless screws in Alu, that had been out-door for 25 years.

Worth a try.


Best of luck

J
 
#5 ·
Med,

My symphaties!

You should use a knocking machine :) Not sure what the name is in english, but a machine that knocks at the same time as it turns the screw.
Such are sometimes used when chaning tyres, something I do twice a year.

Prior to attacing you should apply copious amounts of oil or whatever. It always helps, at least somewhat.
If you can, try to apply some heat (you can) and some cold (ice, frozen Nitrogen) in order to get the metall to expand and contract. This should be repeated many times. And oil, did I say that?

With this, I succeeded to remove stainless screws in Alu, that had been out-door for 25 years.

Worth a try.

Best of luck

J
they call those tools iimpact driver down here
 
#4 ·
with the exception of one(the upper left one in most of the pics) those are all pretty easy

the one that is broken might not have enough strength to vise grip it

my advice is to heat cool treat them

heat them up then mix up a half and half solution of atf and acetone

when the bolt is heated it will wick into the threads let sit...tap tap to jarr them a but

then use the vise grips and they will pop out easily

cheers
 
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#7 ·
Am impact driver used in the first place sure would have helped avoid this situation. <sigh>

Any thoughts on how to apply said impact driver to the gnadgered studs? Only one of them has anything left of a slot on the head.

MedSailor
 
#9 ·
The ones that you have drilled pilot holes into may be a problem. However, you MAY be able to key them directly into the chuck of the above pictured drill/driver.

If you cannot use the drill, then vice grips and a hammer are your friends. Heat and oil as above, then crank the vicegrips down tight, and have a friend give the stud a stout whack, as you try to back the stud out with the vicegrips.
 
#10 ·
They look pretty messed up, but I thought I'd throw another idea at you. It might be too late for this if you've already gone the "vice-grip smash" route.

Penetrating oil for a day or two (PBblaster or SeaFoam... not Liquid Doesn'tWrench).

If you can renew the threads with a die and if there's room enough to get two nuts on, tighten the two nuts together firmly, then use the appropriate size wrench on the bottom nut to get leverage on the stuff. If necessary, use heat at that point, too. That's how I get out stubbornly rusted exhaust manifold studs in my cars. Your threads may be too far gone, but I can't tell for certain from the pics.

Best of luck... this stuff isn't fun, and I'm sorry you're faced with this dilemma.

Barry
 
#17 ·
well the issue you have some techniques that counter others

heat is in fact what you want if what you want is to wick in PENETRATING oil or the 50 50 mix I mentioned

heat also will crack and or melt any sort of epoxy or sealant or varnish or liquid that has migrated in the threads or not

heat and therefore the later CONTRACTION of the metal is what in reality releases the threads

if you do this more than a few times the heat thaw heat thaw is usually enough with combination of penetrating oil and some sharp vise grips to remove

last bit of advice

for those saying to cut a slot...if you do so on the stub only and especially on the ones that already had a drill hole in them you are setting yourself for the easiest crack ever

that part of stainless is extremely soft...plus you have already on most of those stubs bent and or expanded or softened the metal

the grip method compress the shaft as a whole and has a much much likelier chance of not snapping on you than the other methods provided you have used the heat method, wicking in the penetrant and most importantly

USE A COOL HEAD AND PATIENCE

peace

ps. med if you havent rebuilt any old engines before youll see that this is a walk in the park...jajajaja
 
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#19 · (Edited)
Good luck.

Heating up the remnants and letting them cool will help break the connection which is likely corrosion welded.

Someone (Popular Mechanics magazine perhaps?) did a comparison of penetrating oils. As I recall PB Blaster was the best commercial product but the 50/50 mix of ATF and acetone Christian suggested was better yet.

Hitting the stud with a hammer also helps to break the corrosion bond. Since you said you have access to the bottom you might try also beating the screws from that side with a hammer and a brass drift.

After all that ViseGrips (tm) might get them out. If not you choose between welding on a bolt head (as suggested above) or EZ-Outs (which aren't easy).
 
#20 ·
Maybe it's me but the pictures look like they're hollow. I'm sure they're not though.

My idea is to cut the bolts flush to the surface, as close as you can get then find a hole saw and cut it out off-center from those bolts so you won't be drilling the studs themselves. Then, the same size hole saw to make a plug to fill the hole (mostly) then use fiberglass and epoxy to fill/fair it and then you can retap and place new studs, if you still need them.
 
#22 ·
You used Kroll so that is a good step, but stainless on stainless in salt water, worst combo ever. If somebody had the presence of mind to use anti sieze then it might be easier. Any real force on these will likely break their bond from the fiberglass underneath so be careful. For me, use sharp drills and carefully drill each one, painful I know but that would be after you have tried what it looks like you have already done. Use a cordless drill and steer the drill point before it gets to full diameter of the drill, so you hit close on center. Sorry.
 
#23 ·
Great ideas so far. My previous experience with badly frozen bolts has always been with dissimilar metals, like stainless fasteners in an aluminum housing for example, or non-stainless steel and good ol' salt water corrosion.

The heat-beat-repeat method has served me well and I understand it can break up the salt crystal bonds of regular salt corrosion, and in the case of dissimilar metals it helps because the metals expand and contract at different rates therefore "loosening" things.

In this case, heating likely won't do much because the studs and sleeve are the same material. Also, the sleeve is thin, and I can't really heat it up much without damaging the surrounding glass.

Cold is an idea, but cold makes metal brittle. Seems like it could make things "snappy".

So far I like the idea of attaching the impact driver chuck directly, using 2 nuts, and welding a new nut on. How cool would it be if I could get these ba$*&rds out when the yard says they can't figure out how to do it.

MedSailor
 
#25 ·
I missed the stainless sleeve part...

heat is less effective there but hey

everything is worth a shot now! cant get any worse

oh next time please get a boat with a pool instead...seems the sauna wasnt enough jajajajaja
 
#27 ·
This is a job for a Japanese master metal worker. He'll carefully use what looks very similar to a 10" metal bastard file (except, of course, it is a far more sophisticated tool) to put a hex head on each of the studs. Then build a small dam around each one, and over a course of 48 hours, cryogenically treat each stud with liquid nitrogen to harden it. Then and only then, a small libation is offered to the gods, and a conventional socket wrench, with a long handle, used to spin them out.

They've been doing it this way for over a thousand years. Patience, and a bastard file. And of course, a very skilled master using it.

Yankee shortcuts with a Dremel tool or angle grinder just won't be the same.

Attempts to tack weld two pieces of iron bar stock on each stud, turning them into "T" handles, are also ill-advised, as the Master will never touch those studs if he sees any sign of previous welding on them.
 
#29 · (Edited)
Before I offer any solution, I would like to know a few things.
1) are the pieces that the machine screws are threaded into, going to be used again?
2) what is below these or can you drill down around them?
3) what are they for?
4) are there matching parts that these hold down, like table legs or a windlass, so position is critical?
5) do the pieces that machine screws are threaded into extend below the solid fiberglass floor/deck?
6) is there access below the floor/deck?
Thanks.
 
#30 ·
Before I offer any solution, I would like to know a few things.
1) are the pieces that the machine screws are threaded into, going to be used again?
2) what is below these or can you drill down around them?
3) what are they for?
4) are there matching parts that these hold down, like table legs so position is critical?
5) do the pieces that machine screws are threaded into extend below the solid fiberglass floor?
6) is there access below the floor?
Thanks.
1) They sure don't have to be.
2) below this is my master stateroom ceiling. The bottoms of the screws are visible if the headliner in the master stateroom is removed.
3)They hold the steering pedistal in place
4)Position is critical because of molded fiberglass that the pedistal fits into. i.e the pedistal can't be shifted forward an inch. New screws/bolts could be placed next to the originals and the old ones cut off and left in-situ (this IS plan "B") but I'm first going to see if I can just get them out.
5) No. Not sure how thick the floor is. 1/2"-3/4" maybe? The bottoms of the screws are flush with the lower edge of the fiberglass (the master stateroom ceiling)
6)Yes, below the "floor" (or cockpit sole) in the photo is the ceiling of the master stateroom.

MedSailor
 
#31 · (Edited)
First you need to know what size bolt and thread count before proceeding. You may need this info later.

I would cut the studs off leaving a 1/4", then slowly drill a 1/4" pilot hole in the center till you go thru the bolt. You need to do this drilling slow, lots of pressure. If you over heat the drill it will anneal the metal (harden it) and you will never be able to drill it. Once you have the pilot hole drilled step up the size of the drilled hole till you have almost nothing but threads left. Now the drilling will heat the metal and it will cool, this will possibly help brake and corrosion free. Now take the largest Straight Flute & Spiral Flute Extractor you can fit in the hole. Give it a few love taps to set the extractor into the stud, also helping braking the bolt free. Take a tap handle and attach it to the extractor and remove the stud.

Now if that does not work, finish drilling out till only the threads are left. Take a tap and clean out the threads. If that does not work, drill out the threads and tap to the next size bigger. You might need an end tap to finish this up, being a blind tap.
 
#34 ·
THat is basically exactly what I would do and have done. I would leave enough of the bolt above that after you drill out (with a reverse bit) you can grab it with vice grips. Often, if you have drilled deep enough, you can crush the bolt inwards off of the threaded sleeve they screw into.

I had to do this a few months back. Real Pita.

Good luck.

Brian
 
#32 ·
Well, seriously...

Cut off any mangled ends, and clean up the thread at the end. Then you spin two or three (the more the merrier) nuts down onto the bolt, and starting at the second (one under the top) bolt, you tighten them each UP against the next bolt, lining them up so the sides are all aligned.

Now you've got a hex-head on each bolt. Apply a socket wrench, it might spin the stud out before the bolts come apart. Using two nuts this way (jammed against each other) is actually pretty common, although having to fight epoxy adds another element to it. I think I'd try it cold first, and then risk heating those bolts up real good first, to try breaking down the epoxy. I say "risk" because the heat might weaken the studs.
 
#38 · (Edited)
If you end up with damaged threads in the SS plate embeded in the deck your best bet may be a helicoil to re-thread the plate since I'm guessing you won't be able to go up a bolt size and just re-tap the plate.

This link is for a kit from Grainger but any good hardware store will stock them.

Patience is your most important tool. Good luck, not a fun job...

I'm guessing a "professional" at the yard created this mess?
 
#39 ·
If you end up with damaged threads in the SS plate embeded in the deck your best bet may be a helicoil to re-thread the plate since I'm guessing you won't be able to go up a bolt size and just re-tap the plate.

This link is for a pack of them from Grainger but any good hardware store will stock them.

Patience is your most important tool. Good luck, not a fun job...

I'm guessing a "professional" at the yard created this mess?
At this time I am not willing to confirm or deny the above statement as I do not comment on pending litigation.

Also, as far as I know (thought I don't really know) there isn't a stainless plate that these screws go into. I and some others originally thought the screws were directly threaded into the fiberglass but a surveyor who was recently aboard saw what looks like a thin jacket surrounding the screws which he figures is a stainless sleeve into which they are threaded.

Patience I have. Loads of time, I really don't have right now, but I still want to have a crack at it. Time consuming jobs are expensive jobs in the yard unfortunately. You guys should see the yard estimates to undo this mess! :eek:


MedSailor
 
#40 ·
I apologize if someone else has mentioned this fore I haven't read thru the whole thread...
You need a product called e-z-outs. In addition to soaking w/ PB for a couple of days, you could also apply use a little heat followed by a good soaking of ice cold water before commencing the exercise.
 
#44 ·
Man this thread is awesome! I should have hauled out at the SailNet yard! I'm learning lots of tricks.

JimMcGee- One of the things I liked about the nauticats is that the decks are solid fiberglass. No wood. No core. No need for exotic drill-fill-drill-seal procedures. I figured I can move my deck hardware and running rigging about with reckless abandon and not worry about ever having leaks which some day create the dreaded spongy deck.

The yard did originally suggest drilling out around the bolts with hole saws but they were suggesting a pretty big hole and back-fill. It was a HUGELY expensive quote and I was worried about the structural weakening of such big holes with just filler instead of contiguous glass. I care, because the deck is structural. So much so that my deck stepped mizzen doesn't even have a compression post or bulkhead below it. Just deck.

Smaller hole saws with large washers might be a good way to go...

Delta-T- I think I REALLY like what you've done with that project. Thanks for the links to the exotic fasteners as well.

MedSailor
 
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