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How does the marine industry price?

11K views 132 replies 34 participants last post by  tommays 
#1 ·
So I was looking up my toilet in a futile attempt to figure out how to use it. Anyways bringing up the model linked west marine's site and it cost $199. I thought it would be $1000. It and a lot of other things got me wondering how they come up with what they are going to sell something for. I have blocks that cost as much as this whole toilet. And don't even get me started on how much I found out my propeller cost.

Are they throwing darts at a board with numbers or is there some sort of reasoning behind this?

I'm not saying boat stuff is overpriced, but that it seems inconsistent. If I don't know how much something cost I can't even guess. Like a refrifgerator. I have no idea. Maybe it's $200 or $2000. Is it just me? What's the craziest thing you have seen? Low or high, it doesn't matter.

I will say the only thing that makes sense is electronics. They seem to follow a pattern.
 
#2 · (Edited)
NOB, as I understand it, boat stuff needs to be suitable for use in a marine environment because the 'marine environment' means lots of salt air (corrosion) and sunshine (UV radiation).

That means anything metal will be more expensive than you'd be used to eg. blocks should(*) be made from non-magnetic stainless steels, and plastic, canvas and paints should(*) contain UV-resistant additives and anything electrical or electronic should(*) use tinned-copper wires and resin-coated circuit boards ...and something like a marine toilet should not need anything very special at all.

In summary: Reputation means everything. Buy high-quality products from people like Jamestown Distributors and you're less likely to regret it later when miles out of sight of land. ;)

* = There are always shonky deals out there. eg. One reputable-but-cheap maker of sheet blocks uses cheap stainless in some (but not all) of their range to keep costs down and increase their competitiveness. Buyer beware!! :eek:
 
#3 ·
That makes sense. But I would have thought that the toilet also would be in the more expensive marine group. I mean, they flush with salt water right? And that's corrosive, they need special lube and care. Also, unlike a regular toilet, they need locks and hand pumps and different in hoses and out hoses. So I would have expected them to be priced higher.

Don't think for one second though, I ever cheap out and get china blocks, or the cheap fishing store blocks and gear. It's all name brand. Except for the old car batteries I found in the dumpster that are powering my "house". But I have ten in a cardboard box in the bilge so it works.
 
#13 ·
... Except for the old car batteries I found in the dumpster that are powering my "house". But I have ten in a cardboard box in the bilge so it works.
Is this one of those times that you mentioned yesterday where you're being funny and it doesn't always come across as humor?

(hoping that's the case)
 
#5 ·
With many items, marine or otherwise, price is based on cost to produce. Volume of sales is a huge factor in this. A Jabsco twist and lock manual head is made in vast numbers and the price is quite low - $169 here - as it is used on all types of boats from the basic small sailboat or powerboat to larger boats. Blocks and other items of hardware are not built in as large numbers and that has an effect on pricing.

Inlet and outlet hoses are not part of the head and are not included in the price. Top quality sanitation hose is about $10 per foot for 1 1/2".
 
#6 ·
Many marine products are only built in small numbers. That drives the price up as the development costs have to spread out over a much smaller number of sales. It explains why a 10 inch chartplotter costs more than a 50 inch smart TV. If something is a minor modification of something that is sold for other uses, that can keep the costs down. I suspect marine heads are also used in things like RVs and that helps keep the cost down a bit.
 
#8 ·
Take a look at the rebuild kit price for the Jabsco and you'll feel it's price is more 'marine'. As others said Jabsco makes a lot of toilet bowls and salt water isn't going to corrode the bowl.

As for blocks I've got some on my boat that are 20+ years old and going strong. When you consider the enviroment they are in I'd say they are worth the cost.

West marine story. I bought a starboard cockpit table (~$250 I think) that locks into the pedestal without first checking if it would fit my pedestal. It didn't and they only carried one size :( So the Admiral goes on the web and finds the company. Sure enough they make one that will fit our pedistal which we ordered from them and returned the other one. The kicker you ask? The company MSRP was almost a $100 less than what west marine sold it for.......

Brian
 
#9 ·
Get as familiar with RV suppliers as you are with West Marine and Defender. You can often find the same part with the same item number for considerably less.

Our fresh water pump is also used in RV's. When ours went south I bought two, literally two pumps for less than the cost of one pump at West Marine. So now I have a new pump and a spare. :eek:

And yes it's the same model number pump.
 
#10 ·
One of the other issues in pricing marine parts is the very slow turnover. A grocery store for instance expects to sell everything on the shelves in much less time than WestMarine, which allows the grocery store to make a smaller markup per item sold.

The inventory turnover ratio (number of times per year) for Whole Foods for instance is 20.6 so the entire inventory in a store is turned over a little over 20 times a year on average. The ratio for WestMarine is .47, meaning West turns their inventory about every two years. Obviously this has a huge impact on things like carrying costs, shrinkage, outdated equipment, ect...

Despite the fact many consumers tend to think that prices are increased just for the marine market, in reality most manufacturers don't enter the marine industry because margins are notoriously thin. There just isn't much money to be made from selling to a small market that required a lot of specialized engineering.
 
#11 ·
The last time I read the West Marine annual report to stockholders their net profit was 3/4% on sales.

The pricing of West Marine private label goods is confounding. Some of their soft goods provide good value. On the other hand I've seen a WM labeled product priced at 50% more than the identical non-WM product shelved beside it.

I'm frequently amazed by the outstanding support that vendors provide.
 
#12 ·
A marine head is a pretty simple machine and is made in huge quantities. They show up on every boat, not just sailboats. It is made of injection molded plastic along with a porcelain bowl, and that bowl gets used in RV toilets.

A block of the same price (around $175) would be something like a fiddle block with a cam cleat -- like what you'd find at the bottom of the main sheet. It needs to handle being pulled apart by about #2000 or more of force, and the sheaves need to be able to turn while doing so. It needs to work even when it is completely immersed in salt water and spends most of it's life exposed to UV. The $175 block like this is light and probably made of an exotic glass reinforced plastic (if you didn't care about weight you'd buy the $70 Garhauer block). It is made in small quantities -- the only market is for new sailboats and replacement hardware on aging sailboats.

The smaller the production quantities the higher the cost of manufacturing. The higher the precision and the more exotic the materials the higher the cost of manufacturing. So that $175 block is pegging the scale on all of those accounts, while the toilet is not.

If sailing was much more popular hardware would be cheaper because the scale of production would increase.
 
#19 · (Edited)
You might want to do some research, it's highly unlikely your engine requires a "Volvo Impeller", for instance... I'd be very surprised if Volvo actually makes impellers, after all...

For example, the popular Volvo 2030 is actually a re-branded Perkins Series 100 M-30, the same engine I have in my boat... Turns out they are both based on a block made by Shibauhara (sp?) Mfg of Japan, and is one of the most popular small tractor/industrial engines in the world... Parts are widely interchangeable and available, just takes a little (or a lot) of digging, to find out what you need...

One thing those folks at Volvo and Westerbeke are really good at, is painting over stuff :) That "Volvo" starter motor that you might need, and were quoted $800 to replace, might have been made by Hitachi, and can be had from Budda's Auto & Marine Electric on eBay for $179... Only those with more money than they know what to do with, necessarily need to be putting "VOLVO Oil Filters" on a Volvo 2030... :)
 
#20 ·
So I was looking up my toilet in a futile attempt to figure out how to use it. Anyways bringing up the model linked west marine's site and it cost $199. I thought it would be $1000. It and a lot of other things got me wondering how they come up with what they are going to sell something for. I have blocks that cost as much as this whole toilet. And don't even get me started on how much I found out my propeller cost.

Are they throwing darts at a board with numbers or is there some sort of reasoning behind this?

I'm not saying boat stuff is overpriced, but that it seems inconsistent. If I don't know how much something cost I can't even guess. Like a refrifgerator. I have no idea. Maybe it's $200 or $2000. Is it just me? What's the craziest thing you have seen? Low or high, it doesn't matter.

I will say the only thing that makes sense is electronics. They seem to follow a pattern.
I will start with your last comment.

Electronics are priced alike because they are all price fixed.
This technology is very old, and even an ipad makes them look slow and pedantic. So the manufactures set a price, and they all stick to it.
thats why a 15" chart plotter from anyone costs thousands.
And a 15" touch monitor cost less then $250.

To answer all your questions thou, they charge what people are willing to pay.
I have next to me a black magic 75MM block. Priced at $240.
Its a bearing, some aluminum, and some stainless. I could make one myself with a small 3D mill and some aluminum stock for about $15-$25.

This is also why I keep looking for a tiny 3D mill that can make things of aluminum. Right now they are expensive.

You want a desk fan for your car? $5 at big lots, you want a marine fan? $100. Sure, they are not the same, but they are also not much different.
 
#21 ·
Electronics are priced alike because they are all price fixed.
If you have any real evidence of this, there are a number of regulatory agencies that would be very interested, since this sort of collusion between manufacturers would be completely illegal.

...thats why a 15" chart plotter from anyone costs thousands. And a 15" touch monitor cost less then $250.
Please tell me where I can buy a waterproof, 15" monitor, that can be read in full daylight, for less than $250. I am very anxious to buy one. But I'm not dumb. I know that such a thing doesn't exist. In fact, a computer with a 15" monitor that is readable in full daylight will cost thousands, just like the chart plotter.

This is all simply a matter of "what the market will bear."
 
#23 ·
Marine products DO need to be considerably more rugged than mass consumer items, especially electronics. Sit that iPad or that "smart" phone out in the salt water spray for a while and see what happens. I have had my little Garmin 376C plotter for years. It has held up through all sorts of rotten weather, direct sunlight, and few thousand hours of boat use. I've used it in the car and hiking and it is still as dependable as ever. The screen is bright in the sun, the buttons have been pushed thousands of times and still work like new. It just keeps on ticking and is worth every cent I paid for it when it was new. The amount of development and research involved in making these specialized, limited market marine tools makes them worth more than run of the mill electronics.
 
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#39 ·
I work in Vancouver Island's largest marine store (it's not West Marine:)) and do a lot of the ordering as well as pricing. We are not Raymarine dealers but do sell Standard Horizon, Icom, Humminbird, Garmin and Lowrance. The prices are not set by any manufacturer that I know of - illegal in Canada and probably in the US as well. Electronics does have the lowest profit margin in the marine industry.

A quick search shows the Raymarine I70 at prices from 1250 to 1700. I would bet that @1250 there is very little profit in it.
 
#40 · (Edited)
I work in Vancouver Island's largest marine store (it's not West Marine:)) and do a lot of the ordering as well as pricing. We are not Raymarine dealers but do sell Standard Horizon, Icom, Humminbird, Garmin and Lowrance. The prices are not set by any manufacturer that I know of - illegal in Canada and probably in the US as well. Electronics does have the lowest profit margin in the marine industry.

A quick search shows the Raymarine I70 at prices from 1250 to 1700. I would bet that @1250 there is very little profit in it.
here in the USA prices may be set by the manufacturer. If its not legal, then a lot of big corps, have great lawyers.
As far as I could tell the garmin 740i was never a clearance item. They were replaced, and then they disappeared one day. Just as I was ready to buy one.

I don't know much about Canada, except that your all into hockey, have no real summer, have square wheels on cars, and have funny heads.

 
#55 ·
I did build my own wind instrument using a Davis anenometer. These are primarily designed for use on houses, but Davis used to sell a marine system that used them. Their anenometer is approximately $125.

There are differences compared to a marine anenometer. The Davis works pretty well when heeling, but is not quite as well balanced an accurate as the high end instruments from Raymarine, NKE, Garmin, and others. It has about a 15 degree dead zone where it can't measure the wind angle. I have that facing directly ahead, which is fine for sailing but does mean that I can't have the boat's autopilot follow a wind angle directly ahead while putting up the sails. Davis uses a stopless potentiometer for measuring wind direction and the dead zone is where the potentiometer's slider is between the highest and lowest resistance.. The marine ones use a different method for detecting wind direction (measuring inductance between 3 coils) that has lower friction, will last longer, and has higher resolution. It is also less sensitive to debris.

$125 didn't pay for my entire system, that just covered what is at the masthead. I used a Netduino (Netduino :: home) to interface it to the NMEA 0183 network on my boat. The rest of the electronics cost about $100 (Netduino, 12V->7V power supply, waterproof enclosure, wiring). I spent at least 10 hours writing the code. I didn't build a display since I just send the information on to my Raymarine network.

Overall I'm very happy with the price/performance of my system, but I don't think it is at all equivalent to a higher end system.

Raymarine actually sells multiple wind instruments. They have a system for around $400 (including all electronics and display) that is designed for power boats that has similar limitations to the Davis. Their higher end system (designed for sailboats) costs about twice as much but has a much better instrument.

UnionPacific -- You really should take a metalworking class to understand how milling works. The tiny CNC routers that you are looking at can't handle the relatively deep cuts that you would need to make a mixing elbow. It will take tons of passes to cut the smooth curves that you need for the bore (which means the runtime will be extremely long). You will be doing 4 operations (two per half) before welding them together. There is a reason that these are cast when mass produced instead of machined. If I were making a one-off it would be welded or brazed together, not machined. Machining, even with CNC, is not as simple as just drawing an object in CAD and saying "go".
 
#57 ·
I did build my own wind instrument using a Davis anenometer. These are primarily designed for use on houses, but Davis used to sell a marine system that used them. Their anenometer is approximately $125.

There are differences compared to a marine anenometer. The Davis works pretty well when heeling, but is not quite as well balanced an accurate as the high end instruments from Raymarine, NKE, Garmin, and others. It has about a 15 degree dead zone where it can't measure the wind angle. I have that facing directly ahead, which is fine for sailing but does mean that I can't have the boat's autopilot follow a wind angle directly ahead while putting up the sails. Davis uses a stopless potentiometer for measuring wind direction and the dead zone is where the potentiometer's slider is between the highest and lowest resistance.. The marine ones use a different method for detecting wind direction (measuring inductance between 3 coils) that has lower friction, will last longer, and has higher resolution. It is also less sensitive to debris.

$125 didn't pay for my entire system, that just covered what is at the masthead. I used a Netduino (Netduino :: home) to interface it to the NMEA 0183 network on my boat. The rest of the electronics cost about $100 (Netduino, 12V->7V power supply, waterproof enclosure, wiring). I spent at least 10 hours writing the code. I didn't build a display since I just send the information on to my Raymarine network.

Overall I'm very happy with the price/performance of my system, but I don't think it is at all equivalent to a higher end system.

Raymarine actually sells multiple wind instruments. They have a system for around $400 (including all electronics and display) that is designed for power boats that has similar limitations to the Davis. Their higher end system (designed for sailboats) costs about twice as much but has a much better instrument.
I admire your money saving efforts more then you know. Its great to see people innovating. I have a datamarine masthead sensor now, I wonder if I can reuse that in the same manner your using yours. Did you do a writeup of the build?
UnionPacific -- You really should take a metalworking class to understand how milling works. The tiny CNC routers that you are looking at can't handle the relatively deep cuts that you would need to make a mixing elbow. It will take tons of passes to cut the smooth curves that you need for the bore (which means the runtime will be extremely long). You will be doing 4 operations (two per half) before welding them together. There is a reason that these are cast when mass produced instead of machined. If I were making a one-off it would be welded or brazed together, not machined. Machining, even with CNC, is not as simple as just drawing an object in CAD and saying "go".
Your very correct, it will be a massive chore to do with the CNC. The reality is I do not need a mixing elbow, I was just going to learn on that, and use as a spare. I would also bolt it together, not weld it. I want the CNC mill for making parts when I am in a remote location. For example if my engine needed a new rocker arm, I could get one made on my CNC before I could ever get one in the mail. Its the parts I cannot think of that I would use it for. Thou I would use it for the serpentine system for sure. Should be no issue cutting aluminum pulleys, I may add a 4 axis for that job.
 
#58 ·
You really need to get some basics of machining. You are posting links to CNC routers and then talking about 4-axis operations that require a CNC mill. You are picking difficult items to start with.

I love machining and have made parts that are sprinkled around my boat. However I also know when it makes more sense for me to buy vs build. I can't imagine keeping my CNC mill on the boat, even my small Taig requires a minimum of 8sqft and more when you use it with flood coolant. It is not light either (it is light for a machine tool, heavy for a boat tool).

To convert an old masthead sensor you need to find documentation for how it interfaced with the base electronics. I haven't documented what I've built, it is on my to-do list but pretty low down there (mostly because I don't want to get endless emails asking for support from people who can't build something like this themselves -- which is what happens whenever I document semi-complex projects like this).
 
#60 ·
It depends heavily on the instrument, they don't all work the same way.

The Signet instrument that came on my boat used 3 inductance coils for wind direction and measured a voltage for wind speed. They documented this in the manual, which was still online. The Davis uses pulse (speed) + resistance (direction).

If you have any experience with interfacing basic sensors to simple computers then you can probably figure out how your current masthead sensor works.
 
#61 ·
If you have any experience with interfacing basic sensors to simple computers then you can probably figure out how your current masthead sensor works.
None at all. I wasted my time in chemistry, not computer science. I am sure I could learn it quickly thou.
 
#63 ·
North, are you thread drifting from homemade anemometers to battery boxes? Are those photos of your new boat? Very clean spaces! I would route those straps underneath the battery platforms if they are merely screwed in. Wood screws won’t hold the weight of an upside down battery. I would also get battery box “trays” that are acid/chemical resistant. I learned this the hard way after I had to replace the unlined trays on my old boat. (It is also an AYBC standard now too.)
 
#67 ·
North, are you thread drifting from homemade anemometers to battery boxes? Are those photos of your new boat? Very clean spaces! I would route those straps underneath the battery platforms if they are merely screwed in. Wood screws won't hold the weight of an upside down battery. I would also get battery box "trays" that are acid/chemical resistant. I learned this the hard way after I had to replace the unlined trays on my old boat. (It is also an AYBC standard now too.)
No, not drifting. Just, I made a stupid joke earlier that my batteries are in the bilge and I think people thought I was serious.

Good idea about the straps. I'm doing some battery research today to redesign my system. Ok back to where you were.
 
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