SailNet Community banner
  • SailNet is a forum community dedicated to Sailing enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about sailing, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, repairs, reviews, maintenance, and more!

Why buy new rigging?

10K views 88 replies 28 participants last post by  jephotog 
#1 ·
Pulled the stick and am planning to re rig. Replacing the spreaders (some rot), but as I look at the rigging (probably 20 years old) I really can't see anything wrong with it. Some tarnish, but no "fish hooks", cracking, etc. The rigging (and everything else) on the Yankee 30 is overbuilt to begin with.
I know riggers say to replace every 8 - 10 years, but do I really need new rigging?
 

Attachments

See less See more
1
#3 ·
How do you see inside things? X-ray vision? Or do you figure you can inspect that swage and rusty pin when they fail a thousand miles out at sea? Riggers, engineers and experienced sailors don't just make up the data, you know.

Stainless is good at hiding weakness.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MarkSF and chall03
#4 ·
Carefully read what your insurance underwriter has stated (usually in the fine print) in your current policy about the length of time honored for the service life of the standing rigging. Many are including rigging 'service life' limits into renewed policies.
 
#6 ·
What do you use the boat for?

I find there are two schools of thought when it comes to rigging, extreme optimism and extreme pessimism.

Just because you can't see anything wrong doesn't mean there isn't anything wrong. That's the pessimist view. But then after 20 years it might be fine. That's the optimistic view :)

I think at 20 years you will struggle to find a rigger who will tell you anything other than replace it.

Personally if the boat is only a daysailor/weekender and you lack the budget to replace now I would be ok leaving it, but I would keep a careful eye on the rigging and it would be at the top of jobs to do in the next 5 years.

If your racing or going offshore, I wouldn't take the risk myself.
 
#7 ·
you call it some Tarnish. I would call it rusty. 20 years, you have already stretched 10 years past the recommended. can you sail on with confidence that it will not let go. do you sail with family and friends or people you do not like?
 
#8 ·
I would like to hear someone with real knowledge about the metallurgy chime in on this. I have replaced my 40+ year old rigging "just because" as well. It all looked perfectly ok except for maybe the standard swaged ends which MAY have shown some corrosion although that was really not evident. I can understand if there IS some actual chemical change to the wire or if repeated flexing, or some other real reason exists then it has to be replaced but I'd like to hear some real scientific reason as to why it is not acceptable to change out ends only. Ends certainly need replacing at regular intervals if just for the slightly variable nature of swaging or swageless technology.
 
#47 ·
I agree. People quote what riggers and insurance companies say as gospel. Neither have any reason to be anything other than conservative. in fact, I'm guessing the 10 year figure is based on the assumption that's the minimum period in which a average boat owner can reasonably amortize the cost.

Remember when auto insurance companies stated (as if it was law) that you had to obtain 3 auto body estimates before they would pay your claim? Total myth, created for their convenience.

In the OP I stated my rigging was 20, though in reality, it is probably original (1970). I'm not sure and simply didn't want to hear the outcry.

Yesterday I was getting a quote. The rigger looked at my stainless turnbuckles and scoffed "We don't use stainless hardware anymore for all the obvious reasons". He hesitated, stared at the turnbuckle, then said "Though....they certainly have served you well!".

So, I agree. Let's see some science, rather than accepting the word of entities that have a vested interest in you replacing your rig.
Out of curiosity, I'd love to have one of my old shrouds tested to failure.

BTW, I am replacing the rig "just because". My question in the OP was not generated by cost, but by the throw away society we have become. Having worked in the boat yard this week, it turns my stomach to see all the stuff going to landfill. I'm guessing the rigging will be recycled, and it has served several owners well.
So...it's time.
 
#9 ·
"do I really need new rigging? "
Eyes and hands is not enough, even if you have very experienced eyes. If you want to pull the rigging, including all the attachments fittings and bolts, and then dye check or x-ray all or it to see if there are cracks or other failures that you wouldn't pick up by eye...Well, that's one more level of reliability.
But at 20 years most folks would say that's long enough to amortize out the cost of the rigging, maybe to a hundred bucks per year? One fifty? And even if your insurer is silent, at a certain point it is just time to ensure whatever you've got, has 20 years less fatigue in it.

Need? No, not unless there's been a failure or an insurance mandate. But maybe, like clean underwear, you should change the rigging before you really NEED new ones.

That would be, of course, after it has actually failed. That's when you'd absolutely need new rigging.

Of course if you are just inland lake sailing, daysailing, always within reach of shore and rescue and avoiding heavy weather, you can get away with many things. Including old rigging.
 
#10 ·
Of course if you are just inland lake sailing, daysailing, always within reach of shore and rescue and avoiding heavy weather, you can get away with many things. Including old rigging.
When the mast comes crashing into the cockpit, killing someone, does it make a difference whether one is on a lake or out at sea?
 
  • Like
Reactions: oldfurr and RichH
#11 ·
the wire work hardens from being " Worked". stretched, twisted, bent, vibrated, hammered, all types of work hardening. work hardening will cause the metal to crack. it starts on the surface and the cracks just get larger as it is continuously worked. then you add some water and the metal starts to corrode. the corrosion that you can see is the steel in the alloy turning into iron oxide. iron oxide is not strong. the corrosion extends into the cracks and causes what is known as stress corrosion cracking or in sailing terms a broken mast. or in insurance companies terms, Sorry, we don't cover that old rigging.
 
#12 ·
"When the mast comes crashing into the cockpit, killing someone, does it make a difference whether one is on a lake or out at sea? "
Obviously it does. At sea, lacking proper freezer space, one can always perform a prompt burial at sea. On a lake? dumping bodies is discouraged, but you can usually arrange a morgue pickup before the body gets ripe.
:devil
 
#15 ·
#16 ·
Look at the price of a new mast. Cheap insurance to re rig your boat. If you plan on keeping your boat for awhile and do some serious sailing or voyaging then I'd suggest using staylock fittings and do the job yourself. A week ends worth of work for some pretty good peace of mind.
 
  • Like
Reactions: oldfurr and chall03
#17 ·
The USCG mandates replacement of the wire at 8 years if you carry passengers. They did this after a series of deaths from aged wire, and a pretty in depth survey of rigging hardware. Obviously this is a pretty conservative standard (as they should be for charter boats), but it's always a good idea to keep in mind what the professionals recommend.

From a metallurgical standpoint stainless work hardens which after 20 years is probably a given. Add in inter granular corrosion and I wouldn't trust it at all.

Of course you could rehab the metal. First it need to be x-rayed to determine corrosion, then it needs to be re-tempered to get rid of the work hardening. Finally it needs to be passivated again and electro-polished to prevent future corrosion. Of course this will likly cost 3-4 times more than replacing it, so it's up to you.
 
#18 ·
The posted picture is of the port lower shroud upper end. Typically the upper wire and connection is in better condition than the lower (unless the shroud has been swapped end-for-end at some point).

The wire in the photo looks very similar to 1x19 wire on an older boat with wire of unknown age (with mechanical end fittings) that I recently replaced. I cut through the old wire. It was very brittle. Rust was hidden between strands throughout the wire.
 
#19 ·
Surface damage is just that, on the surface.

When I got my boat, there was a broken fitting the previous owner said I could just replace and it would be ready to go. Thankfully, I didn't take his advice. I found out another fitting for the roller furling was cracked in three places and one of those cracks was WIDE open. I replaced it all first thing. It looked just like what's in the picture on that first post.

Another example, the owners group for my boat have had discussions on the chainplates about replacement due to cracks. On 30+yr old boats, it's probably a good idea. Mine "looked fine" from the outside but once I started taking them off, I saw surface rust on the side against the boat. The very last one (out of 9 total) I took off, the 1/4" stainless chainplate bent as I pulled it. There ended up being only one bolt holding the standing rigging on that chainplate. You can see the work I did on my chainplates here.

I mention the chainplates too because the standing rigging and fittings themselves are not the only thing in the system that can fail. It's all "stainless" but time can catch up before you know it. It would be best to change it out for peace of mind knowing it's not going to fail when you're out to sea. I wouldn't trust it with how that looks.
 
#20 ·
After doing a bit of research about the metallurgy, it seems like the concern IS about work hardening of the metal, with corrosion and then poor quality swaging as the factors in rigging failure. I did not think that stainless was significantly vulnerable to work hardening but it definitely is. So, changing out the wire seems to be necessary, although I didn't see any definitive time data. Rigging wire DOES undergo a lot of loosening and tightening cycles which would suggest that hours of usage makes a difference although just being at anchor and rolling around would produce a lot of stress cycles, although very small. I'd like to see test results from wire producers which, I'd assume, include this type testing. Anyway, knowing this would make me MORE apt to change out wire more frequently.

This is a GREAT book on sailboat rigging which I bought a few years ago and use often. The Complete Rigger's Apprentice: Tools and Techniques for Modern and Traditional Rigging: Brion Toss: 9780070648401: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51xpOsb4gYL.@@AMEPARAM@@51xpOsb4gYL I am planning on learning how to do a wire eye splice which would eliminate swage failure points. Putting in a spliced eye instead of a swage seems to me to be a no-brainer as it eliminates the swage and the cost of a swage fitting.
 
  • Like
Reactions: oldfurr
#22 ·
There are simply too many unknowns to make it worth the risk.

When I bought my boat, I really didn't know its sailing and maintenance history. I sailed it for a few years, with the rigging always on my mind.
I inspected it and found very fine fractures that ran up the swage fittings on the lower ends of several shrouds. I suspect freeze damage from water intrusion.

I replaced it all myself, with Hayn Hi-Mod compression fittings and a couple of Norseman compression fittings.
All new wire and all new bronze turnbuckles by Hayn.
Now, I can easily disassemble and inspect any piece I wish. If the terminals remain in good shape, I can replace the wire and re-use the terminals.
No hydraulic swage machine required to make repairs.

The initial extra outlay is worth the long-term investment.
 
#23 ·
One of the other issues frankly is that replacing the rig because of a wire or terminal failure is an incredibly expensive process. For many older boats if the mast breaks for any reason it may not be economically viable to repair the rig, and the insurance company will just total the boat. What is often worse is that it is very likely that if your rigging is 20 years old, and hasn't had a recent qualified inspection report done the insurance company could very likely declare the loss a failure to maintain the vessel incident, and thus not be liable at all.

Taking this type of claim to court is also going to be pretty close to useless. The industry standards are 8-12 years, the USCG inspected vessel requirements are 6 years, when you reach multiples of the recommended replacement interval you are pretty much self insuring. And did I mention that for many boats the cost of a new rig is far beyond the cost of replacing the vessel?

Masts are expensive. Likely the single most expensive piece of hardware on a boat even more than a new engine.
 
#26 ·
Taking this type of claim to court is also going to be pretty close to useless. The industry standards are 8-12 years, the USCG inspected vessel requirements are 6 years, when you reach multiples of the recommended replacement interval you are pretty much self insuring. And did I mention that for many boats the cost of a new rig is far beyond the cost of replacing the vessel?

Masts are expensive. Likely the single most expensive piece of hardware on a boat even more than a new engine.
Really? So the tall ships that are running around carrying passengers are replacing their rigs ever 6 years by coast guard edict?

MedSailor
 
#24 ·
"Putting in a spliced eye instead of a swage seems to me to be a no-brainer as it eliminates the swage and the cost of a swage fitting"
Versus the time and effort to make a perfect eye splice, and the need to buy a new piece of cable if you mess it up and have to cut that one short. And the fitting to go into the eye and keep it open, you wouldn't want tension to pull that tight and out of round. And....
The swage probably IS the cheapest way to go. At least, an entire industry seems to prefer using them, and that's based on "built to a price" for the mass market.
Just saying.

But Brion Toss is still in business (AFAIK) and probably would answer your question directly on that.
 
#32 ·
The splices in Toss's book are done on heavy duty thimbles which eliminates the elongation problem you'd have with a plain loop. The splice he does on his website video is gorgeous but I couldn't find that vid. Here's a site with some outtakes: https://www.flickr.com/photos/squarerigger/sets/72157600183894973/I was going to bring some of my old wire home over the summer to practice doing these (it's fairly complicated) but forgot to chuck some in the car when I left the boat down South. Grrr. Being able to make up standing rigging with nothing other than the wire has some kind of appeal.
 
#25 ·
I tend to replace things on a sailboat that are critical items, such as standing rigging, more often than some recommend, because I sail the boat hard, and like sailing in rough weather.

That said; I see boats in our freshwater lake that are pushing 50 years old, and have the original wires. The only masts I've seen come down have been on newer boats, with lighter rigging.

I would replace the rig myself, if it were my boat. I'd start with the fore stay, and then the upper shrouds. Do it yourself and not only save some money, but you'll also feel better about knowing your boat.
 
#28 · (Edited)
I had a chain plate on my boat that been there since 1978. I am not sure what it was ever used for, as I have never used it. It is just like the main shroud chain plate, only located aft 3 inches or so. I was thinking of keeping the spare chain plate as a back up, but a few days ago just decided to pull it and fill in the deck hole. While taking the stainless 3/8 inch think by 2 inch plate out, it broke into 3 pieces (basically crumbled apart) and every bolt snapped a head or broke. On the outside the stainless plate did not look that bad, that is before it broke. If it is stainless, I would replace. BTW, in process of replacing all my chain plates and bolts with titanium. All my standing rigging also getting replace, as well as all mast tangs (TI for them too).
 

Attachments

#33 ·
BTW, in process of replacing all my chain plates and bolts with titanium. All my standing rigging also getting replace, as well as all mast tangs (TI for them too).
Where are you sourcing the TI from?
 
#30 ·
"https://homeport.uscg.mil/cgi-bin/st...9438e736cab2d6 "

Hey, Stumble?
Just had ten guys in body armor break through my windows, fastroping down from some real loud choppers. Apparently, that URL comes back
"Unauthorized access detected" and DHS interrupted all of our dinners trying to find out why I was trying to access it.
Good thing I had enough cold beer in the fridge to console everyone for a wasted trip!
 
#35 ·
Stick has been in since the boat was built two years ago. Noticed a couple of rivets for main sheet bails went bad during last passage. ( do rig inspection before and after each passage and twice a year). Currently boom is down to redo all fasteners. Professional rigger is going through all standing rigging as I post.
Think every boat that sails in the ocean should have inspection by a professional rigger at least every other year. They see things you don't they know things you don't.
Do most of my own maintenance. Think that's important to know the boat and know how to fix things when the pros aren't around. Also to save money. But think it's hubris and penny wise pound foolish to not have the pros look over the boat time to time.
Love to chat up the pros. Always learn good stuff.
 
#42 · (Edited)
Damn straight with a rigger going aloft and doing a comprehensive visual inspection every few years, and especially before long voyages.
Their 'well practiced and experienced' eyes is very beneficial in prevention and ID of developing catastrophic failure. Sure I can stress calculate/analyze 10000 times better than a rigger .... the point is: I dont have the 'eyeballs' of a good rigger.
An up-the-mast inspection is cheap, even if you do your own rigging work. Besides, good engineering practice is always to have someone else always check over your work. Ive been 'saved' a few times, even by 'newbie' engineers. Same should apply to boat rigging, etc. etc. and any other potential critical/hazardous situation.

;-)
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top