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Advice, please on crimping wire connections...

28K views 67 replies 24 participants last post by  LinekinBayCD 
#1 ·
I have to make some wire connections this weekend on my boat, and think I know what I'm doing, but would appreciate confirmation or correction. The wires are to the bilge pump, in an inside quarterberth locker. I have bought the right sleeve (blue) for the size 14 wires, and have a crimping tool. I am planning to cut about 3/8" of the insulation off the wire ends then twist a bit to avoid a stray thread of wire, then insert as far as it will go into the sleeve, then squeeze the heck out of it with the crimping tool, then test by pulling firmly on the wire to see if it will hold.

I don't have a soldering iron, and have heard mixed opinions on whether soldering is good on a boat (better connection, but more brittle/prone to breaking with vibration, acid in solder flux not good, etc.).

In one case, I have to add two wires to one end of the sleeve, and only one wire to the other end of the sleeve--any advice? Do I use a larger sleeve to accommodate the two wires and just squeeze harder for the single wire on the other end, or try to force the two wires into the smaller sleeve?

Thanks for any advice--I do need my bilge pump to work.

Frank.
 
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#27 ·
Interesting what some people get hot about. Yes, it is just a bilge pump and almost anyway will work. I have been known to cut corners in the past and do a quick repair in an inappropriate manner… and have almost always lived to regret it. I don’t know, maybe I’m just lazy, but I prefer to do a repair only once.
 
#28 · (Edited)
knothead said:
Jorjo, you not jumping on the "I hate America bandwagon" are you. Or have you been riding for awhile now.
Jorjo is a founding member...and too dumb to realize that the ABYC is part of the ISO group that develops INTERNATIONAL standards for the marine industry.

Also, jorjo is probably too dumb to realize that bilge pumps have fairly long leads, that leave the connections well out of the bilge. There are connections that should be soldered...but the power leads to a submersible bilge pump aren't among them.

Surfesq- IMHO, I don't really see what Jorjo says as condemnation, since he doesn't have the IQ to understand what is really going on.
 
#29 ·
If you are really interested in reading about crimped electrical connections, you might want to read the article here.

I don't know of any tests between crimped and soldered connections, in a marine environment, but soldered connection have a track record of a greater rate of failure than crimped connections, and in a marine environment, you really should be using only marine-grade tinned wire, as you can see from the article I mention above.
 
#30 ·
To ALL:

Since the US (us yanks) can't do specifications correctly:

From IEC60950 (A Europian Union specification on safety of power equipment)

— wires connected by soldering are not considered to be adequately fixed unless they
are held in place near to the termination, independently of the soldered connection;
 
#31 ·
"Interesting what some people get hot about. Yes, it is just a bilge pump and almost anyway will work. I have been known to cut corners in the past and do a quick repair in an inappropriate manner… and have almost always lived to regret it. I don’t know, maybe I’m just lazy, but I prefer to do a repair only once"

Dave, I wasn't suggesting that it's ok to to a half-assed job. I was only saying that it's kinda silly to get so worked up about how to wire a bilge pump.
I usually always use heat shrink butt connectors for an application like this. But I am sure that someone with a modicum of common sense could do a pretty good job with a little solder, shrink tubing and wire ties.
In the immortal words of Rodney King "can't we all just get along"
 
#32 ·
Knot,

Just wanted to be sure! ;-) Actually I'm getting a big kick out of all of the passion in this one little topic.

I have and expect to continue to learn a lot on this forum, I contribute when I have something worthwhile. As a trainer in manufacturing and electronic processes, I am always mindful of those who are learning. I can’t help it, it’s just the way I am.
 
#33 ·
So, after reading this thread and becoming quite amused, I need to ask the experts:

You mean twisting the wires together and bubble gum does not work? Whew, my boat is in trouble. I will say I followed ABC Standards (Allready Been Chewed). Since the twisting is not subject to the cracking of solder, the gum makes it watertight and it can be stuck anywhere, I fail to see how I could have gone wrong?

I did chew Bubblicious on the especially critical applications.
 
#35 ·
Surfesq said:
Jojo: You need to calm down. Have you ever hard of spontaneous human combustion? You might just be a candidate Dude.

By the way, I use both the crimping technique and the solder sleeves. I like the sleeves when I am running through the bilge, etc.
LOL, Naw Surf, It's just a Northern Ireland thing, we don't mince words at all over here, Visitors frequently think a fight is about to errupt when locals are just saying hello in colourfull lingo.

But back to the topic.

Safest suggestion in this senario has to be a small plastic Waterproof Junction box. You Life can depend on a bilge pump and its only ever as good as its wiring
 
#36 · (Edited)
jorjo said:
LOL, Naw Surf, It's just a Northern Ireland thing, we don't mince words at all over here, Visitors frequently think a fight is about to errupt when locals are just saying hello in colourfull lingo.
Nah, we just think you're an illiterate, ignorant and obnoxious A$$.

Unfortunately, I'd have to agree with you about waterproof junction boxes being a good thing, but they can also cause problems, if they are not properly sealed.

CruisingDad-

You need to use the sugar-free gum, so as not to attract rats and other vermin to your electrical system, if you're using the ABC electrical standards. Bubblicious is only recommended for above waterline connections, BubbleYum is recommended for below the waterline and in the bilge connections. :D BTW, ABYC Code says that Red wires are DC positive leads.
 
#37 ·
all this rukus about wiring a bilge pump, what if he had a real concern, like that red wire... wonder what that one is for?

---ISO standards... screw them, as long as you have a policy, and its written down, you can be ISO'd. (along with a fat-azz check.)
 
#38 ·
jorjo said:
ABYC? Whats that? some yank thing ? Some irrelevent Standards group that has little or nothing to do with 99% of the world?

In short Dog Your a loud mouthed Yank a$$hole who'd sooner pick a fight than say something useful on an INTERNATIONAL forum.
Jorjo: Check out the Sailnet Members Map. See any trends? How about Sailnet's physical address of 381 Brinton Lake Road, Thornton PA 19373, USA?

'Guess it's a "Yank" thing after all, huh? (Even though I live South of the Mason-Dixon Line). Do they have Internet in Ireland yet? Oh... wait! That's an American Invention too! :p
 
#39 ·
Cruisingdad said:
So, after reading this thread and becoming quite amused, I need to ask the experts:

You mean twisting the wires together and bubble gum does not work? Whew, my boat is in trouble. I will say I followed ABC Standards (Allready Been Chewed). Since the twisting is not subject to the cracking of solder, the gum makes it watertight and it can be stuck anywhere, I fail to see how I could have gone wrong?

I did chew Bubblicious on the especially critical applications.
The bubble gum is not really the best thing to use. Go with 5200 and/or duct tape I find the goo from the tape to hold important connections together very well, and if you flip some of the tape backwards it will hold the wire up high and dry. 5200 can be used in the same manner, but duct tape is a little cheaper.
 
#40 ·
Nick,

It is quite obvious to me that you have never chewed Duct tape. It leaves a horrible taste in your mouth. As for the 5200, I am afraid the long term (or short term) conscequences of never being able to chew again make it a poor choice for the cruising couple.

Nope. Bubble gum is the way to go. "A little chew, put it on, sitck it, then your're through."
 
#41 ·
Cruisingdad said:
Nick,

It is quite obvious to me that you have never chewed Duct tape. It leaves a horrible taste in your mouth. As for the 5200, I am afraid the long term (or short term) conscequences of never being able to chew again make it a poor choice for the cruising couple.

Nope. Bubble gum is the way to go. "A little chew, put it on, sitck it, then your're through."
I know it taste horrible, but I dont want to attract bugs do to the gum, I live in Florida. Do you use regular or sugar free? And have you had any bug problems?
 
#44 · (Edited)
sailingdog said:
Nah, we just think you're an illiterate, ignorant and obnoxious A$$.
Huh? but I've already told you I'm not American :rolleyes:

Some may find this A Usefull Tip.

Many prototype electronic circuits where "potted" traditionally to prevent repairs or reconstruction by the end user. the technique involved nothing more than a small container, a bedding layer of epoxy,then insert circuit and cover with more epoxy until level.

things like smashed or broken junction boxes can easily be re/constructed mid voyage using any small container and epoxy.

The most successfull use of the method I know of was a seagoing fishing boat where the bilge pump wiring got severed close to the pump and the repair was made at sea by stripping and twisting the tails before drying and "potting" them in Araldite filled screw top bottle caps. The repair was still 100% effective 6 years later when the bilge pump was being replaced during a refit.

I don't recomend leaving an on the fly repair do for 6 years, but none the less the method and simplicity of quickly fabricating lasting waterproof repair suitable for many tricky situations at sea using such common onboard items is one worth mentioning.

The method can also be used for casing repairs for dropped/ cracked handheld radios or gps etc if they are cracked but still functioning (since the epoxy is also an effective electrical insulator.)
Simply fill all cracked and exposed areas then tape up or wrap in plastic for shaping untill the epoxy sets.

The result may be ugly and irreversable but at least any remaining functionality can be effectively preserved untill the end of that leg of a voyage
 
#46 ·
happyman said:
Shrink tube can be slid over the wire and warmed up with a heat gun, or better yet, shrink connectors can be purchased to give the same results -> a water tight seal.

Good luck!
Only adhesive-lined heat shrink tubing really gives a water tight seal. Normal heat shrink tubing gives a seal, but is not water-tight as capiliary action will wick water up in to the tubing.

And Jorjo... that just mean's you're an Irish illiterate @$$.
 
#47 ·
Hey, far be it from me to duck the chewing sidebar, but anyone have favorite sources for racheting crimpers? btw, that link--I think it was sailingdogs's--to the GoodOldBoat crimp / electrical test made a convert out of me.

Also need wire and liquid tape. Generally speaking, tinned #14 wire is what to use, correct? Cabin lights, that sort of thing?
 
#48 ·
What wire you should be using depends on the load and the distance run. "Ampacity" tables, as Calder calls them, are pretty widely available and will tell you what kind of load will work over what distance. Don't forget that the wiring should be designed for the HEAVIEST LOAD on a circuit, while the breakers should be sized for the LOWEST LOAD on a circuit. The reason for this should be pretty obvious. You want the breakers to trip well before the wire heats up significantly.

If you have several loads on a circuit, and one is significantly lower than the others, say an LED light versus regular incandescents, it should probably have an in-line fuse near the fixture, because if you gear the breaker for the LED light fixture, you'll probably trip it every time you turn on an incandescent fixture. Likewise, if you have three incandescent light fixtures on a single circuit, the breaker should be geared to trip if one of them shorts, not if all three short, otherwise you could be risking a serious fire from one shorting out and the breaker not tripping. Calder has a pretty good discussion of this in his book.
 
#49 ·
Typically you'd choose wire that is adequately sized to have less than a 3% voltage drop in the run you are using. Let's say a cabin light in the v-berth, 30' away from the breaker panel including all the zigzags in the line. That makes it a 60' run, because you count both sides of the circuit. With a 20-watt bulb in that light...you'd draw less than two amps, so you could use a thin wire pair that only has a 3% voltage drop at 2 amps, and it would be good enough to give you a nice bright light. (In practice, you'd probably use a heavier wire and "t" off multiple lights all the way along one side of the boat, doing some rough figuring for the total of them all and something less than the total length for something that complex. In practice, you might just pick up the closest spool of wire you had, since 100' spools are cheaper and you just might have 14g at hand.<G>)

The actual power handling capacity of the wire, called ampacity, will be well above the "3% voltage drop" size. Ampacity depends on what the insulation type is, and whether the wire will be in "free air" or buried in a bundle or conduit, which traps heat. If you exceed the ampacity rating--the wire catches fire, which is not a good thing. If you pick wire which has more than a 3% voltage drop, you just choke the devices at the far end.

For instance, if you use 10g wire to feed your masthead light, the light will be nice and bright. But if you use 14g or 16g wire, you can save some weight aloft. To a diehard racer...the 14g wire and saving weight aloft might be the right answer. If you don't want to get run down at night...10g might be better.<G>

Sources for crimping tools? I'd avoid no-name junk from China because it is easy to make the dies the wrong size. Any brand name from any reputable source should do. Palladin is one of the "second-tier" brands you'll find at a lot of computer stores, etc., that seems to be quite good for casual use. (Might not hold up to 50,000 crimps in industrial use but that's not us, right?<G>)

Something else about crimps that I don't think anyone has mentioned here. The fittings should be tubular, or lined with tubular liners (copper or tinned sleeves) and not split metal. The $5/100 kind in the auto stores are always split metal, not seamless tubing, and if you crimp the tooth down on the split side--instead of the seamless side--the crimp will never have full strength. There are real differences in "the good stuff" that way.

You'll see most ratcheting crimpers have a removable/replaceable crimp die. If you find one that doesn't, don't worry about that. In practice you don't swap dies, you swap tools. You remove the die to replace it after it has worn out, which shouldn't be an issue for "home" users. Looking at how clean the tooling is, the overall quality of it, is more important. If you need to crimp TV cables or something else, buy a second crimper not a second die.
 
#50 ·
AMP, Ancor, Paladin, and Ideal are four companies that make ratcheting crimp tools.

Hellosailor's point about the crimp fittings is very valid, also the ones you find in the automotive store are often steel rather than tinned copper, which is what I beleive the marine-grade crimp fittings are made of. The automotive ones will not only not hold as well, but will generally corrode in a marine environment.
 
#51 ·
Use the largest wire that you can fit into the space (conduit, access hole, etc.). Generally (very generally, Hellosailor is correct, it depends on the length, insulation temperature rating, etc.) 10 AWG is good for 30A, 12 AWG for 24A, 14 AWG for 16A. However, for long runs the voltage drop in the wire may rob power from the appliance so you may want to go to a higher gauge.

The breaker or fuse rating is generally matched to the wire gauge it protects. This means the largest breaker you should use with a 10 AWG wire is 30A. Smaller is OK but never larger. If you feed a smaller fuse with a larger breaker, the wire gauge to that smaller fuse needs to be the same gauge as the circuit wire. What this means is that if you are putting a 2A fuse in line to an instrument, and feeding that fuse on a circuit protected by a 30A breaker, the wire to that 2A fuse needs to be a minimum of 10 AWG. The wire from the fuse the instrument may be 18 AWG.

Match the wire to the breaker and the breaker to the wire. If you have a circuit that opens a breaker because of the amount of current draw, do NOT just install a larger breaker unless you check that the wire is rated for the current the new breaker will allow. If you have a 15A breaker or fuse on a 14 AWG service, and need more current, you will need to change the breaker AND the wire.
 
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