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This is a bit theoretical issue at this point, but I will be facing it down the road, so please bear with me.
When I finally buy a boat for an Atlantic crossing (most likely Bristol 34) I will be replacing the standing rigging and chainplates, as well as installing a windvane. It would make sense to install a split back stay at that time. But what are the pros and cons of a split back stay, besides easier access to windvane and higher cost?
Your help is always greatly appreciated.
Seems to me disadvantages would be more potential points of failure, and ensuring new chainplates are adequate. Depending on cockpit layout the lower portions may interfere with helm seating positions where the original single did not.
Advantages would include, as you've mentioned, improved vane access and simple, inexpensive tension adjustment options.
Hmmm... I would think that a split back stay would be stronger, as the loads get more distributed. Helm seating positions is a very good point.
Can you elaborate on the tension adjustments?
From a structural view, there's really no true advantage for split backstays on a sloop, as running backstays are more 'versatile' in the function of applying additional 'helper' stress to the forestay; and, the runners are just as redundant as the second backstay. With two backstays its easier to overload and then break a forestay.
For cutter rigs, the TWO backstays better 'react' with the two stays forward of the mast - forestay and headstay; although and again in that function, runners are better and more versatile in rigging 'stress' (sag) balancing - but this is in comparison to inefficient 'auxiliary stays' found on cutter rigs - IMO.
I say that besides providing a redundant safety function, 'runners' have become my favorite stays for making micro-adjustments to rig tension and headsail (sag) shape while on-the-fly?
From a structural view, there's really no true advantage for split backstays on a sloop, as running backstays are more 'versatile' in the function of applying additional 'helper' stress to the forestay; and, the runners are just as redundant as the second backstay. With two backstays its easier to overload and then break a forestay.
For cutter rigs, the TWO backstays better 'react' with the two stays forward of the mast - forestay and headstay; although and again in that function, runners are better and more versatile in rigging 'stress' (sag) balancing - but this is in comparison to inefficient 'auxiliary stays' found on cutter rigs - IMO.
I say that besides providing a redundant safety function, 'runners' have become my favorite stays for making micro-adjustments to rig tension and headsail (sag) shape while on-the-fly?
I don't get your 2nd para, re cutters. On our cutter with two back stays the back stays attach to the top of the mast, as does the forestry. The runners attach at the same level as the staysail stay.
Are you saying the split back stay is better at resisting the tangential force of the foresail? Because it is not directly inline with the longitudinal axis of the boat? As in using only one runner at a time?
Sorry, hard to be clear in text.
Our big cutter is 44LOD, with a 5' sprit, double spreader, with runners.
How much tension do you put on your runners? We have a 4:1 purchase, which doesn't sound like much.
Great picture. Thanks. In real life is such tension adjustment a visual thing, or do you actually measure it?
Yes, chainplate attachment would have to be done properly. I was thinking of using SS plates bolted to the hull on the outside. That part of the hull is usually quite thick and solid. I would most likely use a commercial rigger to do the whole thing.
Other common arraignment is block on backstay with 1x19 starting at one aft corner of boat,then going up through the block and down to other aft corner of boat. Usually you have a hydraulic ram at one of the inferior attachments to allow varied backstay tension. Usually over time you learn how to tension for different points of sail, different jibs, different wind speeds. Hydraulic ram is calibrated
Boats are different. We have a masthead sloop with Solent. We have running back stays. The running backstays are never used except on passage. They are too much a PIA when tacking/gybing. They are used to tension inner for stay the Solent lives on when on passage or in storms or persistent strong winds to prevent mast pumping.
When I finally buy a boat for an Atlantic crossing (most likely Bristol 34) I will be replacing the standing rigging and chainplates, as well as installing a windvane. It would make sense to install a split back stay at that time. But what are the pros and cons of a split back stay, besides easier access to windvane and higher cost?
"Easier access to the windvane" ??? Have you ever actually used a vane before?
;-)
Hell, most every time I go back to fiddle with my vane, I'm thankful for my single backstay, sitting right where it is, on centerline.... I can hold onto it, brace myself against it, wrap one arm around it, whatever. I would feel far less secure with a split backstay arrangement, and I can't ever recall a time where I really felt it was 'in the way'...
Running backs sure make the move back to the vane in a cockpit like mine a hell of a lot safer, as well...
I think the only reason that split backstays have become more common today - at least on cruising boats - is an outgrowth of the advent of sugar scoop and walk-thru transoms. That should tell you all you need to know about their 'superiority' in rigging terms. I can see no advantage whatsoever in opting for such needless complexity on a boat like a Bristol 34... And, if you have any thoughts of using your backstay as an SSB antenna, a split backstay might possibly complicate matters, or present 'issues', the last thing you want with something that can be as finicky as HF radio...
KISS, and don't try to 'out-think' a guy like Halsey Herreshoff...
That makes a lot of sense, Jon. Much appreciated. No, I have not used a windvane before, so it is all a very important primer for me. The plan is for a crew of 2 and have an auto-pilot, but being able to use the self steering vane is high on my list.
Have lower portion of backstay split. Have had no issue with my SSB. In fact like connection to antenna ( upper portion of backstay) being above the Bimini . Think it's less likely to be messed with, is above the salt spray and in a protected spot.
I'm with hypeer on this one. Perhaps if I had a fractional sloop or a square head main I'd feel differently. Think two full backstays create unnecessary windage and complexity. But perhaps belt and suspenders if both are spec'd to carry the full load. Think on masthead sloops having runners is good addition support for the stick, allow tensioning inner jib or Solent and prevent pumping. But on most cruising boats the stick is stiff, has required prebend and doesn't have winches dedicated for runners. We do set ours up when running in a fresh breeze or above and when the storm jib baby stay goes up for passage. Otherwise they sit by the shrouds ( have their own attachment point there).
But if OP decides to not go with split backstay think he should still have some way to adjust tension of whatever backstay he ends up with. Losing ability to tension fore stay via backstay and flatten main with mast bend is too much to lose even for a cruiser.
Design,build install hyfield levers for running backs is a worthy addition and so easy to use or not use as conditions require. Most big gaffers use them as there is no backstay.
Excellent review Richmand much appreciated. One would further note when you apply additional backstay tension you increase tension on the head stay but decrease tension on the fore stay. This decreases sag if you are flying a genny but increases sag if you are flying the Solent.
We have found it necessary to adjust stay tensions several times a year depending are where we are. We find putting in more tension in the Solent stay then the genny stay necessary wherever we are. Given constructed prebend and nature of shrouds this is not a problem. We do use runners to prevent pumping but also find when there are long boards we tension the runner to leeward just before a tack by hand. When it then becomes the windward after the tack and you ease the other one jib shape is good.
I'm wondering, based on these comments, and esp on a boat like the Outbound, whether adding a hydraulic adjuster to the solent wouldn't be a good way to tweak things depending on conditions..
Huge plus for the Solent is having a sail that is appropriately sized for winds common in trades and offshore. Makes less sense for boat to be used exclusively in coastal environs if overwhelmingly most common working sail is Genoa. Of course your basic premise is wrong as you would never fly the genny and Solent together except ddw on dual poles. We don't do that either using parasailor or wing and wing. But if we did pole both out when going ddw some sag is a good not bad thing on that point of sail.
Solent make great sense for a cruising boat. We very rarely gybe the Genoa. If persistent light air fly parasailor. Upwind if short tacking fly the Solent as it's the front third doing most of the work lose very little and point wonderfully so vmg is excellent.
Other big advantage of Solent is as center of effort shifts when wind speeds increase sail plan remains balanced.
Decades ago it was thought cutter was ideal for cruising boat as centers of effort move toward mast as sail plan shorten. Now thought benefit of this thinking is not borne out. Rather Solent or scutter a la Shannons actually preferable. That's why for last twenty odd years variants of Solent most common on ocean boats even short handed racers.
Finally when traveling unless the dinghy is going to be launched frequently ( meaning near daily) it lives on the fore deck. It's real easy to put it there with a Solent rig. Unless you have end of boom sheeting or a really large boat it's harder to do when that spot is gone. Don't like leaving dinghy on the davits except when coastal.
Just curious have you ever cruised with a Solent rig. I've had cape dories and a Tayana with cutter rigs. I would never go back to a cutter from a Solent. If a rich uncle died and then I could afford Bobs services it would probably be another Solent although I'm started to rethink my opinion about the newest fractional rigged boats done right for ocean service not the rig you see on many current production boats.
.... a nice 'evolution'. But I often wonder if the consideration STEEL vs. FIBERGLASS construction would be the way to go. Could someone recommend such a discussion? <gag>. :-o
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