Co2 PFDs are allowed on board aircraft because - SailNet Community
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post #1 of 34 Old 09-04-2006 Thread Starter
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Co2 PFDs are allowed on board aircraft because

While no one can predict what the TSA will do here in the US...if anyone is flying with an inflateable PFD and the nice man gets all upset at your CO2 cylinders, you may want to refer them to:

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...bd98b3eafa5afe
abc&rgn=div8&view=text&node=49:2.1.1.3.10.1.25.4&idno=49

Which is the online reference to:

Title 49 CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) section 175.10
aka "49 CFR 175.10 (25)"

"Exceptions:

(25) With approval of the aircraft operator, a passenger or crew member may carry in checked or carry-on baggage no more than two small gas cartridges containing no hazardous material other than a Division 2.2 gas that are fitted into a self-inflating life-jacket for inflation purposes, plus no more than two spare cartridges."

Yes, there are specific laws allowing the carriage of those small CO2 bottles on the aircraft. On an "overwater" flight the airline has already consented to them being brought onboard, as every Switlik life vest under every seat already has two installed.

International travelers may want to dig up their own national codes, but these are also referenced generically as "UN Category 2" exempted items, for the same purpose, in the model regulations that most UN member states have adopted.

(Current as of 30 August 2006)
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post #2 of 34 Old 09-04-2006
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Hellosailor— Unfortunately, the key words to this are: With approval of the aircraft operator

In many cases, the airlines do not have a clear policy on what they will and won't allow.

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post #3 of 34 Old 09-04-2006 Thread Starter
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"In many cases, the airlines do not have"

Agreed. But, as I said, the airlines have already agreed to this. They can't waive the US code arbitrarily and on the spur of the moment, and the fact that they have ALREADY DEPLOYED SEVERAL HUNDRED ON BOARD indicates they have already specifically consented to this.

If you don't mind shutting down an airport for the day, you can always agree with the nice TSA man (if he doesn't allow the cartridge) and then do your best to be helpful, i.e. very carefully say "Oh, by the way, there's a couple of hundred of these onboard the aircraft already, if that's a problem maybe you should shut 'em all down until you can straighten it out?"

Thoreau would be proud.
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post #4 of 34 Old 09-04-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor
"In many cases, the airlines do not have"

Agreed. But, as I said, the airlines have already agreed to this. They can't waive the US code arbitrarily and on the spur of the moment, and the fact that they have ALREADY DEPLOYED SEVERAL HUNDRED ON BOARD indicates they have already specifically consented to this.

If you don't mind shutting down an airport for the day, you can always agree with the nice TSA man (if he doesn't allow the cartridge) and then do your best to be helpful, i.e. very carefully say "Oh, by the way, there's a couple of hundred of these onboard the aircraft already, if that's a problem maybe you should shut 'em all down until you can straighten it out?"

Thoreau would be proud.
Unfortunately, most TSA personnel I've run into are just about dumb enough to try doing that...

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post #5 of 34 Old 09-04-2006 Thread Starter
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Yup. That's why citing them with "49 CFRR 175.10 (25) These are UN Category 2 exempted lifesaving equipment" is probably enough to stun them into submission and just let you pass. The alternative would mean finding a supervisor and (shudder) looking up a regulation.
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post #6 of 34 Old 09-04-2006
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It happened

We ran across this issue a couple of years ago flying to Guadeloupe (Air Canada). The Mustang crew-fit's CO2 cylinder caught the attention of the Xray operator at security, as we were travelling with carry-on only. Had we been CoastGuard, or a licenced captain or crew, it would have been OK. So he said. Long story short we took a walk to a higher up who dithered and finally said, can't have it - it could blow up and start a fire (CO2!!) At which point it was pointed out to her that, in fact CO2 is in fire extinguishers - at which point she put her foot down and rejected it. This left us to mail the (expensive) collar back home to ourselves.

Of course, during the subsequent safety video it became clear there were approximately 300 or more of these "explosive" CO2 cartridges under all our seats, all we could do is shake our heads and laugh.

The collar did arrive safely home by mail.
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post #7 of 34 Old 01-04-2008
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Any current updates on boarding aircraft with CO2 cartriges? I'll be flying out in march to Cancun for a crossing to Miami. Just checking to see what the current TSA is saying about this. I searched the TSA list and cant find anything that relates to CO2 PFD devices. Thanks
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post #8 of 34 Old 01-04-2008
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FYI here is the updated Canada guide through the TSB. If you find the applicable US list print it out and take it with you..that helped me once in Miami on Air Canada.

http://www.catsa-acsta.gc.ca/english...age/list.shtml

It clearly states as an exception under sporting goods:

Carbon dioxide (CO2) cylinders or cartridges (except those required for medical purposes; those to be used for aircraft maintenance or for aerodrome maintenance or construction; or those used for self-inflating life-jackets).
No No
CO2 cylinders for self-inflating life-jacket

Note: No more than two small CO2 cylinders or two cylinders of other suitable non-inflammable, non-poisonous gas when fitted into a self-inflating life-jacket for inflation purposes, plus no more than two spare cartridges per passenger.


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post #9 of 34 Old 01-04-2008
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When I flew to Utah for a family visit the TSA people at the gates did not know what a 'Z' Card (Mariner's document) was. An ID issued by the USCG for professional mariners. Gesh! and they are protecting us??
Oh Lord! Please protect us from well meaning bureaucrats! Especially those who think that they should be protecting you from yourself.

Last edited by Boasun; 01-04-2008 at 11:59 AM.
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post #10 of 34 Old 01-04-2008 Thread Starter
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Talisman-
Yes, rather. I spoke to the TSA help center this summer and they took about 25 minutes to refer me to an FAA online site that says what can and can't be brought on the plane. According to the FAA, who follow the UN conventions, the CO2 bottles in life jackets can be brought in the cabin.
And as I explained to the TSA man, that's nice but that's the FAA, where does the TSA affirm this? He said nowhere, it was up to the airport supervisor at each airport--in their individual discretion and hold on a minute he would connect me to the local (major) airport supervisor. Who said no, absolutely not, it doesn't matter what the FAA or the UN treaties say, he won't allow them on the planes.

Bottom line? The US is obliged by treaty to allow them. The TSA prohibits them by individual discretion, claiming this is a matter of national security that goes beyond international treaty obligations.

So I'm taking the Alice's Restaurant approach: Encourage the TSA staff that their job is too dangerous and they need to resign. Example: Pack a small wheel of cheese or some frozen sausage or salami with your lunch. Apparently either of these has the same appearance as plastic explosive on the xray machine, so your handbag will be manually inspected.

When the nice person says "Do you mind if I open your bag?" SMILE and say "Not at all, I bet you are looking at my lunch. It's so hard to tell the difference between cheese and Semtex these days, isn't it?" And, immediately after they OPEN your bag, SMILE and politely remind them "You know, if that was something bad, you could have tripped a deadman switch and set the cheese off. Don't they teach you guys anything about safety? Or anything about protecting yourselfs from suspicious objects in the bags?"

There's a thin line, make sure you don't cross it and you only express concern for your mutual safety, and sympathy over the difficulties of the job. Which include telling the difference between cheese and Semtex. And various other confusions, like whether you've got a Walkman or a detonator.

They examine plenty of lunches every day, you won't get strip-searched for this. Just remember to smile, co-operate, and sympathize with their plight.

Passive resistance can work. Wear a leather belt, make sure to slow down the entire system as you take it off and put it back on. If we all squeeze the system till it stops working---they'll be forced to change it.

The dog and pony show we have now MUST be stopped, because it is not security, it is a DANGER to us all. And an expensive one, to boot. All that money could be spent on real security issues--like armoring the baggage cubes, as some foreign airlines do.

Last edited by hellosailor; 01-04-2008 at 12:36 PM.
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