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post #1 of 13 Old 01-25-2016 Thread Starter
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Main Sheet Rework.

As per the attached pics, our mainsheet system sits on top a targa arch that spans the forward end of the cockpit. That much is good but I've never been particularly happy with the setup.As you can see the mainsheet passes through a stainless tube then down to a locking footblock on the side of the arch then into the cockpit via winch if necessary. The cars lines also drop down off the arch as shown.

To my mind that tube must induce an awful lot of friction into the system and personally I find those locking footblocks to be without redeeming feature.

Now ... I see three possible fixes.

1. Mainsheet forward to the mast, down to the deck through organisers to a cleat on the coaming. Take the car trim lines down to cleats on the coaming via existing footblock, plus new one to port, instead of on the track. Probably best solution but it entails pulling out the headliner and drilling into the deck. If I have someone else do it then it is going to be hellishly expensive, if I do it myself it is long and involved.

2. As above but from the mast off to a block on one of the chain plates then aft along the side of the cabin, again to a cleat on the coaming. Car trim lines same as above. (With this system it would also be possible to take the sheet further aft to a winch on the deck behind the helmsman which does have some appeal.) Less expensive compromise to #1 though not as neat and tidy.

3. Replace the tube and install a double footblock to starboard and relocate single to port. Simple, cheap, less line than routing to the mast. Replacing the tube sounds simple but this is where I am out of my depth completely. Harken do an over the top block. Would that be suitable ?

http://www.harken.com.au/productcate...spx?taxid=4898

I'm also thinking of upping the purchase of the mainsheet tackle. Adds an awful lot of line into the system which gives me pause. Maybe if I get rid of some of the friction I won't need to.

I also don't want to tie up the winch exclusively for the mainsheet though contemplating adding two new winches. Which quick release cleat would people suggest ?

Thanks peoples. Any and all suggestions would be greatly appreciated even if completely different to my options.






Andrew B (Malö 39 Classic)

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Last edited by tdw; 01-25-2016 at 05:02 PM.
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post #2 of 13 Old 01-25-2016
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Re: Main Sheet Rework.

The Malö 39 Classic has got the chain plates placed so you walk outside them?
Much the same as on my boat, i have converted to a "German main sheet" system om my boat. Basically your option 2.
Used Dyneema loops/straps for attaching blocks to boom and chain plates.
Can post som pictures later.

I normally sail with the sheet on the winch, but I have a Lewmar D2 clutch to free up the winch if necessary, the Lewmar clutches can be opened under load of necessary.
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post #3 of 13 Old 01-25-2016
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I really don't like stuffing around with these things. They have had experts pondering the problem for ages but the owner thinks he can just make a simple change and solve many problems.

The foot block diameter is so small that it would induce friction.
The SS pipe may not be inducing much as you think cos of its large diameter.
You can test running the sheet forward to the mast with blocks soft shackled on (you don't need dyneema for a test, and 12mm old bit of rope would be fine.
The Over The Top block could be a good idea but it may not be necessary

Last edited by MarkofSeaLife; 01-25-2016 at 05:49 AM.
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post #4 of 13 Old 01-25-2016
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Re: Main Sheet Rework.

The only advantage I can see in going forward on the boom would be to run to a cabin top winch, without that you still need to get around the cabin top. That curved section is cleverly handled with that tube some cheek blocks could Replace It if you choose and you could get a better fair lead and reduce the trip hazard on that sheet, that would bother me more than friction.
The best place for the main sheet is on the end of the boom but most(all) modern cruisers today Can't do that and maintain a clean cockpit.
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post #5 of 13 Old 01-25-2016
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Re: Main Sheet Rework.

Our pole downhaul and furling lines run through/inside our handrails the entire length of the coachroof without issue so I seriously doubt the tubing is introducing significant friction into this setup.

The thing that jumps out to me is the lousy lead from the cleating block to the winch. Are you getting overrides there? I would think so. Good thing the cleated block is there so you'd have a chance to clear those overrides.

Traveller adjustment cleats at the track ends? (pic is not clear here) That looks awkward too, but obviously leading anything down that arch is problematic.

I would favour a double-ended German setup with stoppers either side. It would allow you to free either winch at any time, and give you mainsheet adjustability from both sides of the cockpit. Put the stoppers on deck level and the lead to your winches is improved too. Maintaining winch power should negate a need for more parts in the tackle. (good news/bad news on that idea.. the good: short throw to the boom so the 'added line' will be minimal, bad news: short throw to the boom may mean a bit of a cluster/jumble in the tackle when close hauled) Longer winch handles will help here too if not already using them (provided you can swing them fully past all your cockpit structures) This idea also avoids having to run your mainsheet through/under/around your windscreen to the dubious location on the cabintop (far from the helm, I imagine.)

I don't suppose you have that guide tube either side? If you went with German system, you could re-purpose the tubes and locking cleat for the traveler control lines... .

Ron

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Last edited by Faster; 01-25-2016 at 05:57 PM.
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post #6 of 13 Old 01-25-2016 Thread Starter
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Re: Main Sheet Rework.

Quote:
Originally Posted by knuterikt View Post
The Malö 39 Classic has got the chain plates placed so you walk outside them?
Much the same as on my boat, i have converted to a "German main sheet" system om my boat. Basically your option 2.
Used Dyneema loops/straps for attaching blocks to boom and chain plates.
Can post som pictures later.

I normally sail with the sheet on the winch, but I have a Lewmar D2 clutch to free up the winch if necessary, the Lewmar clutches can be opened under load of necessary.
Yes to that. We also normally leave the mainsheet on the winch with the locking block held open with a wedge. I loath the thing. When it locks it is the devil to free. The only issue I have with that idea is that the sheet would rub against the grab rail which brings in issues of chafe.

Andrew B (Malö 39 Classic)

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post #7 of 13 Old 01-25-2016 Thread Starter
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Re: Main Sheet Rework.

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Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
I really don't like stuffing around with these things. They have had experts pondering the problem for ages but the owner thinks he can just make a simple change and solve many problems.

The foot block diameter is so small that it would induce friction.
The SS pipe may not be inducing much as you think cos of its large diameter.
You can test running the sheet forward to the mast with blocks soft shackled on (you don't need dyneema for a test, and 12mm old bit of rope would be fine.
The Over The Top block could be a good idea but it may not be necessary
Agree with you there Mark but I note that on later models Malo ditched my setup and went German. Other than the chafe problem mentioned in my previous post my only concern with the Option two (either standard setup or german) is leading the mainsheet from the chainplates to the winch.

Interesting that you think the footblock is more of a problem friction wise than the SS tube. I hadn't thought of that.

Andrew B (Malö 39 Classic)

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Re: Main Sheet Rework.

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Originally Posted by albrazzi View Post
The only advantage I can see in going forward on the boom would be to run to a cabin top winch, without that you still need to get around the cabin top. That curved section is cleverly handled with that tube some cheek blocks could Replace It if you choose and you could get a better fair lead and reduce the trip hazard on that sheet, that would bother me more than friction.
The best place for the main sheet is on the end of the boom but most(all) modern cruisers today Can't do that and maintain a clean cockpit.
Cabin top winch is not practical due to fixed windshield which I'd rather not pierce. It is I admit an attractive proposition to be able to position a couple of winches on the cabin top and if we had a soft dodger/no windscreen that would be my preferred option.

Andrew B (Malö 39 Classic)

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Re: Main Sheet Rework.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
Our pole downhaul and furling lines run through/inside our handrails the entire length of the coachroof without issue so I seriously doubt the tubing is introducing significant friction into this setup.
Mark has previously suggested that I'm overstating the friction issue and you may both be correct. Nontheless it's the curve that concerns me in that regard. All the pressure on the sheet as it goes through the tube is down which is why I thought it might be an issue.

Quote:
The thing that jumps out to me is the lousy lead from the cleating block to the winch. Are you getting overrides there? I would think so. Good thing the cleated block is there so you'd have a chance to clear those overrides.
We find that a problem only when sheeting in a lot of line, say going from broad reach to close hauled. We seem to have gotten around that by only throwing one turn on the winch until fine trimming is required. Have to acknowledge that is not optimum.


Quote:
Traveller adjustment cleats at the track ends? (pic is not clear here) That looks awkward too, but obviously leading anything down that arch is problematic.
Pain in the butt. We mainly sail two handed (three if you count AP) so when on any passage where one of us might be off watch the traveller adjustment is pretty much ignored until everything else is settled. Whatever happens with the mainsheet setup those lines are going to be brought down to cleats on the coaming somewhere. If we went German I could use the SS tube to lead the traveller controls to the cockpit duplicating the setup to port as you suggest below. Duplicating the SS tube on port side would not be difficult.

Quote:
I would favour a double-ended German setup with stoppers either side. It would allow you to free either winch at any time, and give you mainsheet adjustability from both sides of the cockpit. Put the stoppers on deck level and the lead to your winches is improved too. Maintaining winch power should negate a need for more parts in the tackle. (good news/bad news on that idea.. the good: short throw to the boom so the 'added line' will be minimal, bad news: short throw to the boom may mean a bit of a cluster/jumble in the tackle when close hauled) Longer winch handles will help here too if not already using them (provided you can swing them fully past all your cockpit structures) This idea also avoids having to run your mainsheet through/under/around your windscreen to the dubious location on the cabintop (far from the helm, I imagine.)
Yes to long winch handles. Anderson winches come with their very own ultra swish monogrammed handles which is all very well and good but they are quite frankly less than wonderful to use. We only keep them for halyard adjustment and the like while we use those marvelous Lewmar One Touch handles (10") for sheets. I stress (as per my PM) that we never sail with that cockpit enclosure in place. It's a great design in that it can be folded away in seconds but in place it makes sheeting a nightmare. To be frank I also find it horridly claustrophobic when under sail and the only time you really want it is when the wind is so high that it would be a hazard to leave up. To be honest I even fold it away when motoring. If it is really cold but good visibility then I'll steer using the AP while snug and warm under the dodger, if poor visibility then one needs to accept the discomfort and stay at the helm so I can get a better look out. Of course in those conditions I've been know to pass the helm to the Wombet, go below and make a cup of tea.

Cluster jumble is of course an issue as it is on most sailing boats it seems.


Quote:
I don't suppose you have that guide tube either side? If you went with German system, you could re-purpose the tubes and locking cleat for the traveler control lines... .
See above.

btw ... we do need to get decent stopper(s) on the coaming as I need to free up both pairs of winches for headsails. Off the wind we can gain an extra bit of oomph by deploying both inner and outer headsails though admittedly this is somewhat an illusory benefit. Below, say 15 we can use the assy while above 20 one headsail is quite adequate.

Andrew B (Malö 39 Classic)

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post #10 of 13 Old 01-26-2016
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Re: Main Sheet Rework.

Andrew,

I have looked at the photos that you posted of your mainsheet. I think that there is a lot of mediocre thinking in that design. I essentially like the idea of creating a German style sheeting system with the two sides of the sheet run forward to a single swivel block on either side of the gooseneck, then down to the chainplates and aft to a Spinlock rope clutch (XAS0612 or XTS0814 depending on the line load and size), then through a lead block up to your winches. I personally strongly (and perhaps subjectively) prefer Spinlocks over Lewmar clutches because they seem to release more reliably, hold more tenaciously, work on a broader range of line, and with less initial lock creep (my term for that small amount of easing which takes place when the load moves from the winch to the clutch.) The downside is that Spinlocks can cause a little more line wear on heavily loaded lines which are typically locked off at the exact same spot. (Not the case here)

I was not able to find a picture looking forward (from the stern) at the shrouds, or aft (from foredeck toward the cockpit) to evaluate how the leads would run and whether they would be obstructive.

I would think that this should be a lower friction system than your current system, which has the mainsheet turning almost 90 degrees within the tube, before turning aft 90 degrees again at the turning block.

Jeff
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