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Grinder position for offshore.

3K views 29 replies 10 participants last post by  roverhi 
#1 · (Edited)
Just puting new winches in and I thought I would change things a bit. My Valiant has the staysil winches up front on the doghouse by the entrance, the big grinders for the jib at the front of the cockpit and then a pair of aft winches for the gennacker. I figure I will never have 3 jibs out at the same time, and put the staysil lines on the rear winches and move the big grinders back there too. This cleans out the doghouse area a lot and we are not stepping on line all the time, since it is either out of the cockpit or stored in the transom area of the boat. What do you guys think? Have you ever seen a boat set up this way?
The mainsheet and other lines are still in the center and will be managed by a couple of winches and a ton of clutches btw.
 
#4 · (Edited)
Quote: This cleans out the doghouse area a lot and we are not stepping on line all the time....

I make it a practice to loosely coil the jibsheet after every tack and put it on the seat. That means I never have to step on them, and never have foot cleats. That does leave the possibility of a butt cleat, but, with experience, folks ought to be smart enough to not sit on the sheets.
 
#6 ·
Had the staysail winches either side of the companionway on our old boat. Only place they can go if you have a loose footed staysail sheeted to blocks on the cabin top. Never had a problem with line clutter. Would coil the tails and hook around the winches. If done properly they will stay there. Current boat have mainsail control lines, reefing, etc led to either side of the companionway. Have gone to canvas pouches screwed to the aft side of the cabin and stuff the tails into these. Very neat way to keep the 8 lines neatly out of the way.
 
#7 ·
This thread is not really answering the question I have, lets try it again. I don't need to know why I should have the grinders where they are. I know how that works. I just want to know if any of the cutters out there have all the winches in the back of the cockpit, and how that works for offshore.
 
#8 ·
I haven't used my boat offshore and haven't yet used the staysail yet.. I have two options I believe.. One more than the other I think would work better.

What I think how it was/is rigged is the yankee or genoa sheets run through one of the two cars on the side decks to the primary winches on the cockpit coaming. The staysail sheets run somewhere outboard? the granny bars next to the mast to the foot blocks on the cabin top to the two winches on top too.

Ideally this doesn't seem too intuitive when offshore, having your heavy weather sail sheets outside the cockpit.

How I would like to rig it is have the staysail sheets run to one of the track cars to a turning block aft of the secondary winch then to the winch. But not too sure.. Which is why I'm along for the ride of this thread.

I don't have a Valiant like you but my winch setup is similar to those boats.

Here a picture from above on my boat, crude drawings sorry..


See more @ redemptiverepair.com
 
#10 ·
I found this photo of a Valiant 40 cockpit online. If yours is arranged similarly, it doesn't look like there's much room for crew to stand in front of the steering pedestal, while working the primary winch. If you move the winches aft, then the helmsman will have to step aside to provide room for crew to work the winch. If you singlehand alot, then moving the winches aft will put them closer within your reach, where you can tail the sheet and cleat it more easily from behind the wheel. In either case, whether you singlehand or sail with crew, I think they would be more functional if moved aft. If you have primaries and secondaries, I wouldn't move the primaries very far aft of the wheel. If you have two winches too close together, the lines will tend to form a tangled rats nest.

 
#11 ·
Thanks you so much guys. My cockpit is a bit cleaner (yikes!) and the wheel assemby is actually farther aft by about a foot, but you appreciate my problem. When singlehandling, I have a bear of a time getting to my primary winches, they are just too far forward. And the staysil winches are even farther. I would like to be able to handle everything from where I am behind the wheel. Besides, it is often the dead of night and I am watching the radar and AIS from the wheel and...well you get the idea. Below is not my boat, but the layout is similar...
How close do you think I can get a set of winches together without tangling the lines...I have a radar arch right behind them with pins to hold the lines on. I think I will be putting them both behind the wheel.
 

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#14 ·
Re: Grinder positn for offshore.

I think the problem is not so much the winch location as it is the location of the steering pedestal. IMO, a much better location for it would be as far aft as possible while leaving just enough room to stand comfortably behind it, and to allow knee room if you're seated. That's the way the pedestal in my boat is mounted. That might sound counterintuitive, because you'd be moving even farther away from the winches, but there might be a way to make it work rather well, without moving either the winches or the pedestal. When I'm singlehanding and need to tack, I move forward of the pedestal and steer the boat through the tack from that location. From there, I have excellent access to both winches as well as the mainsheet and traveler, and, when the tack is completed and the sheets are trimmed, I move back behind the wheel.

The problem is that you don't have comfortable access to the winches from behind the pedestal, and so a possible solution might be for you to move forward of the pedestal to tack the boat. You said your pedestal is located about 1 foot farther aft than the one in the photo, and that might allow you just enough space to work. I'd suggest you try that procedure a few times before you go to the trouble of relocating hardware. It doesn't take long to get comfortable with it.
 
#17 ·
Re: Grinder positn for offshore.

When I'm singlehanding and need to tack, I move forward of the pedestal and steer the boat through the tack from that location. From there, I have excellent access to both winches as well as the mainsheet and traveler, and, when the tack is completed and the sheets are trimmed, I move back behind the wheel.
Thank you Sailormon, this is the way I currently do it. Can you imagine having a full survival suit on, being tied in at the pedestal, and in full darkness (thick fog) jumping up in front of the wheel every time I need to adjust sail? With Washington coastal changes, that occurs multiple times every watch. Although I do enjoy the exercise that sailing brings, I never imagined that I would be exercising from under a big thick wet blanket. It gets to where I would just prefer not to change the sheets, which leads to poor sailing.
 
#15 ·
Let's presume you have worked out fair leads to the new positions on both sides of the boat. Make sure winch handles (nice 10" or 12" ones) don't conflict.

You may want to think about other uses for winches offshore: preventer, a line to unload another fouled winch, someplace to take up on a reef line or vang or cunningham, bringing MOB back on board.

I'm not suggesting you can't move your winches, only that you think through a lot of applications.

Do you have a fair lead from one winch for a stern anchor?
 
#18 ·
Dave, I love this post. Very valid points all around, and made me think of a few things I had not. Preventer-check, line to unload a winch or a clutch-check (that is why all the winches are doubled up) reef and MOB check. I have a rigid vang.
Stern anchor- these will be better placed. Barquito- thanks for the boat porn- I would love to tiller her, but alas my family will not let me. Too many younguns sailing with me.:laugh
 
#21 · (Edited)
The the purpose of the vang is to flatten the sail for optimum aerodynamic shape. You reef the main to depower it. For short term conditions or if you just don't care to have your sails trimmed properly, releasing the vang, allowing the boom to rise and putting a big belly in the sail will depower the main. The old gaff fishing schooners called it 'scandalizing' the sail, slacking off the gaff, and loosening the main sheet to temporarily slow the boat when they needed to retrieve gear or whatever. When they were going somewhere they kept the sails trimmed/reefed for optimum performance.

Whoever set the boat up threw you a curve with the staysail winches forward on the cabin top. They placed two opening hatches where those winches should be on the aft cabin top. That forced them to locate the staysail winches way forward. If you can use deck organizers and blocks to get the staysail wheel led back to the cockpit, go for it. Also the jib winch area is setup to either be sailed with a crew or the wheel should be moved forward. The coamings narrow way too rapidly to move the winches back far enough to where they could be accessed standing aft of the wheel by the helmsman. FWIW, think having the wheel all the way aft is really dumb unless you like to be cold and wet with constant spray in the face. Much better to have it forward where you are protected by the dodger. I like to stay in the cockpit as much as possible and have set the boat up so that all the mainsheet trim and reefing is done from clutches and winches on the aft cabin top and the sheet winches are at hand to the helmsman who is seated at the forward end of the cockpit. Ditched the wheel and went with a tiller to make handling the boat easier and optimize the self steering vanes performance. Can steer the boat with my legs while I do almost everything else to sail the boat with my hands.

Don't have a staysail so don't have to worry about sheeting on current boat. Our W32 had the loose footed staysail sheeted to the cabin top and the staysail set very well on all points of sail. Ditched the dangerous and always in the way staysail boom. You can't get proper trim of the staysail once you slack off the sheet as the boom kites and puts a big inefficient belly in the sail. You can cure that with a vang on the boom but that takes away the self tacking ability. You can go with a Hoyt boom or elaborate/expensive traveller set up to cure the sail trim issues but the boom will still always be a PITA being where it interferes with foredeck work.

Actually, your issues may be largely self fulfilling. Almost all cruisers use a self steering vane or autopilot most of the time. Not really important where the wheel is located as you won't be there with the mechanical/electronic marvels driving the boat. Let them do the steering while you need to be where you need to be do the other more interesting things.
 
#22 ·
Actually, your issues may be largely self fulfilling. Almost all cruisers use a self steering vane or autopilot most of the time. Not really important where the wheel is located as you won't be there with the mechanical/electronic marvels driving the boat. Let them do the steering while you need to be where you need to be do the other more interesting things.
Hi Roverhi, how is Hawaii? Wish I was there this time of year. I do let the Monitor do the work when I am greater than 20 nm offshore, but right now we are doing a lot of cruising in BC and SE Alaska. This means I have the helm when rocks can bite me, so I am back to square one.
I have always thought out of the box, but I am careful not to mess up a system that already works. I think I may go ahead and move the winches- they are too close to the dodger right now to get much use from them.
 
#23 ·
If the sails are up, the self steering is driving the boat no matter where I am. Maintain a watch inshore so doesn't make a difference whether anyone is on the helm as long as someone is paying attention to where the boat is headed.

There is a blast of arctic air blowing through Hawaii over the next few days. Will be freezing our butts off for a while. Calling for night temps maybe even below 60 degrees and daytime a frigid low 70s. It's a hard life but we manage to grit our chattering teeth and muddle through.

Have visions of doing a circumnavigation of the NE Pacific and sailing down the inside passage. Took a cruise ship to Alaska a couple of years ago and it was super. Would really like to see the area from a little lower elevation and more intimate from the cockpit of my boat. Is there any wind to sail during the summer?? Every sailboat we saw had the sails furled and the engine on because of the lack of wind.
 
#24 ·
Have visions of doing a circumnavigation of the NE Pacific and sailing down the inside passage. Took a cruise ship to Alaska a couple of years ago and it was super. Would really like to see the area from a little lower elevation and more intimate from the cockpit of my boat. Is there any wind to sail during the summer?? Every sailboat we saw had the sails furled and the engine on because of the lack of wind.
Parts of the inside passage, such as around Cape Caution and Johnston Strait have plenty of wind. Other parts not so much. And it seems to want to blow in the opposite way you are going, along with the tides.
I tend to bounce in between the protected passages and the open sea and follow the weather.
Yes it is spectacular and rewarding to go at your own pace.
BTW- sorry about that cold front. I bet you even have to get a jacket on.
 
#27 ·
Well, finally got the pictures. Forgive my hastily done shots, it is currently colder that the balls on a brass monkey and raining out here. You probably cannot see it, but my chartplotter in enclosed in the doghouse, which opens up when I am sailing. The two winches on the back are where I want to place things, on the front is where they are.
Also, seeing a Valiant 40 with a tiller has intrigued me. Has anyone sailed with this arrangement? How hard is it to control a 40 med to heavy displacement boat with a tiller?
 

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#28 · (Edited)
Tillers were common on boats even larger than 40' prior to the '60s. The advent of the Edson Cable Steerers and yuppiedom of sailing has been the impetus towards smaller and smaller boats going with a wheel. If you want to see how your boat steers with a tiller, disconnect the cables to the quadrant and use the emergency tiller to sail the boat. Probably a good idea to do it even if you never intend to ditch the wheel to see how you'll be able to handle the boat in a wheel induced emergency. You have to undue the cables to the steerer to get a true idea of the feel with a tiller. There is considerable drag in the steering from having to overpower the cables, wheel, etc. Found this out the hard way when the boatyard didn't reinstall the key in the quadrant and it was nearly impossible to steer the boat with emergency tiller fighting the wheel with it still attached to the rudder.

Sailed a couple of Westsail 32s on four day deliverys at max weather helm inducing speeds with a tiller. Didn't find it a problem though my 90# wife didn't like to handle long stints on the tiller. If you are saying that was only a 32' boat, remember that a W32 displaces more than 20,000# and the rudder is probably bigger than Valiant 40 rudder.

Saw a few cruisers with tillers that had a stub tiller just long enough for the self steering vane to work effectively. Made for a very small arc and space requirement of the tiller when the self steering or below deck A/P was steering. For hand steering, they had an easily installed tiller extension to increase mechanical advantage and reduce force required. Pendulum Servo Self Steering Vanes work way way better with a tiller than with a wheel. More range of rudder deflection, no friction losses from the wheel hardware, and easier to adjust for weather helm.

If you move the winch, be sure the sheet will still lead fairly to the winch. Looks like the pushpit upright may limit how far you can move it aft. With a non selftailing winch you'll need one hand to crank and another to tail. That will most likely leave you one hand short to steer.
 
#30 ·
See if I can get on my old boat and measure the tiller. Just went out on the boat a few months ago, shoulda told me you wanted to know. There is also a Cal 40 with a tiller a couple of boats down. Maybe I'll see the owners of that boat and get the measurements off that tiller, also. Still think your best bet is to sail the boat with the emergency tiller which is a good idea in any case. H
 
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