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Can I use arborist rope for halyards and sheets?

13K views 59 replies 25 participants last post by  SailRedemption 
#1 ·
I have the opportunity to buy new arborist rope at a good price. It is double braided polyester rope made by a reputable company (New England) with a sufficient breaking strength (5000 lb for 1/2" rope). And, of course, arborist rope is static, it is not dynamic rope for climbers.

Is there any reason I could not use this for halyards? And maybe the 5/8" version for sheets? This is for a 32' boat, coastal sailing. And I am obviously not a racer...

Thanks
 
#2 · (Edited)
If the arborist rope is dacron polyester double braid and is constructed for low stretch, then yes.

If the arborist rope is nylon double braid (similar or equivalent to mountain climbers 'kernmantle') then it will be too 'stretchy' for use for halyards, etc. Arborists usually use a nylon kernmantle braid which is stretchy so that impact is lessened when they FALL. The arborists version of kernmantle usually has an extra-thickly woven outer cover for added abrasion resistance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_rope
 
#4 ·
I have tried some on our Prindle Cat and it seemed to get stiffer every time we used it. it did not run through the blocks well and got twisted easily. halyards on a 32' boat do not need to be 1/2" if you use some of the new marine rope available. whats a good price? all that is needed is 5/16'" and marine halyard rope that size will have a breaking strength of well over 5000 lbs. 5/8" for sheets is also a bit large. I know it will be easier on the hands but can your winches and cleats handle that size line.
 
#8 ·
The long-term characteristics is really useful first-hand information. Hm. Have to ponder that.

I know that I could easily get away with a thinner rope for the halyards but I currently have 1/2" and like it. If the cost is low, why have the rope cut in my hands?

Good point also on the too-thick material for sheets. My current sheets actually ARE too thick, and it is a bit of a pain to get them into the blocks in the first place. After that, they are a pleasure to use. I _believe_ that I currently have 3/4" but your post reminded me that I should measure the diameter before potentially ordering ANOTHER too big rope...
 
#6 · (Edited)
There is no such thing as "arborist rope." Check the New England Ropes website. Under the Arborist tab, you'll see multiple categories, each with multiple rope choices. Some of those ropes, such as STA_SET and Endura, are listed in the Marine rope section, too. An arborist would be a fool to use those lines for self-protection, and New England does not recommend that they do. New England does sell dynamic rope for arbor work.

My boat came equipped with over-sized lines. The halyards were too big to make a proper cleat hitch on the installed cleats. The jib sheets were too big for their camcleats, resulting in difficulty in setting them and random releases. I downsized the lines and now everything is more pleasant and secure. Proper line is not so expensive, if you don't get into the high end racing rope.
 
#12 ·
that's climbing rope 3.5% at a very light load( the weight of a person ) is telling you that it is very stretchy line good if you fall the line will give. likely 10% at 30% breaking strength
good halyard line would be less than 1% at 30% of breaking strength.
Climbing rope is also not so good for withstanding UV and salt
 
#13 ·
if one is looking at the dollars then you don't use prices from Worst marine and you don't over size the line just because bigger seems better and it is what you all ready have . the new line is much stronger now and can be sized smaller then in years past. compare the climbing rope to the line that you application needs. 32' cruising boat with 3/8" Sta set would be common and about $ 0.85 a foot. if you really want 1/2" its about $ 1.50 a foot
 
#14 ·
I bought 12mm (1/2 inch) double braid for a main hallyard. Its breaking load is 3700kgs which is 8,000 pounds. So if you're is rated 5,000pounds its , obviously, a bit less, or cheaper.
One many things: 1 product sold to at a marine store is $$$$... the same product sold inland to poor farmers is $.

Search and research well and you can save a bucket of money.

Beware those who tell you there is only one right way. "Do it properly or you will reget it" is total BS. I say: do it in a safe, affordable way. So a 30 foot cruising boat does NOT need 8,000 pound breaking load line. You could lift your whole boat up and twirl it! Also a halyard need not be zero stretch. You hoist the main. When the wind hits 20 u wind it up another 3 inches. Where's the problem?

:)
 
#17 ·
I hope you try using some of that arborist rope in a marine setting as a test to see how it works and holds up.
Can you use some for sheets and to secure your fenders and report back to us on how it does?

Everything made for marine applications seems ridiculously over priced. I understand that it has to be corrosion resistant in salt water environments, but some of the prices are crazy.

I think that you could take Walmart bottled water and re-label it "Sailor's Agua: (Specifically formulated for marine environments)" and sell it in marina stores for $7 a bottle.
 
#18 ·
It does happen of course, but the good 'marine' products are fundamentally different products. Everything from material selection to design is different on marine products, all to meet a very small market with very slow turnover. As a former marine supplier I can promise you our profit margin on marine stuff was pretty much exactly the same as it was for non marine gear, but the costs were higher.

As for this rope... There is zero need for 1/2 rope on a boat this size, the stretch is all kinds of terrible, and the strength is far lower than it should be at this size. Yes you can use it, no you shouldn't.
 
#22 ·
I don't know the technical aspects of Arborist rope but unless it has similar strength/stretch characteristics to say, NER Sta-set in the same size I'd stay away from it. If you shop around (and in the offseason) you can find some good prices on Sta-Set and on Regatta braid. The other thing to consider is how it FEELS in your hand.
Personally, I'd use line that was designed for a marine application. I suspect that climbing rope of any kind has different properties.

For your halyard you could get 5/16" VPC from Defender. On sale right now for 1.01/ft. 5500lb avg. load
Or 3/8" Sta-Set for a little more but slightly less strength and a little more stretch.
 
#23 ·
I'll take a smaller diam dyneema based rope, same strength, less stretch than a sta-set. Many times there is not much difference, if saying comparing 1/2" sta-set to a 3/8" dyneema cored line. With 1/4 the stretch. So when the wind pipes up, you do not have to haul in the main or jib halyard 3". maybe an inch if at all! Same with the sheets, a gust gives you speed, no heel to less heel, because the line does not stretch as much, taking the shape out of the sail.
Along with, on light wind days, the smaller diam line allows the clew to fly a bit because the wt of the bigger diam line is not holding it down, so you can get better shape out of the sail, to sail in light winds vs turning on the iron genny, or drifting backwards.......

My 02 on the subject, not that one paid for this!

marty
 
#24 ·
the climbing rope ( Arborist rope ) with a 3.5% stretch at 300 lbs will be more like 20" that you will have to haul up when the wind pipes up.
I use 5/16" Warpspeed with the cover striped on about half of the line. the 1/4" dyneema core is good for 6200 lbs way more then is needed for a halyard on a 32' boat. the boat came with 7/16" line and it added a lot of weight and friction when hoisting the sail, the smaller line makes it very easy to hoist.
 
#26 ·
As a former arborist, and rock climber, I would not suggest you use climbing line for your sailboat. While the Tru-Blue or Safety-Blue are a low stretch line(compared to rock climbing rope) there is still significant stretch. I do use my tree climbing gear, including my New Engand Rope High-vis Safety-Blue rope, to access the top of my mast. I'd use old lines as dock lines and in a pinch as anchor rode but would not even consider using it for a halyard or sheets.
 
#27 · (Edited)
OK, I buy cheap rope from Menards and use it on my boat. 90% of the time, it works just fine, HOWEVER one thing I discovered is that in 30 mph winds, the load on my jib sheet is high enough that the rope becomes thin. This means it does not hold its dimensions when squeezed through the jam cleats. SO you have a 1/2 inch line that under extreme load is only 1/4 inch thickness. It still held, but was a little sketchy. At 20 to 25 mph winds, it was just fine. So it really depends on what you sail in and how often.
 
#29 ·
I know somebody who goes to the hardware store and buys the cheap white nylon 3 strand stuff.
Then again they haven't done an oil change since they bought the boat 10 years ago.....
Won't even go into the missing lower stay!
 
#33 ·
OP here, again. Will try to summarize.

Thanks to ALL for your insights. I have learned a lot from this thread and it helps me to make a better decision. I also did some amount of additional googling. One well-written analysis is by Beth Leonhard and Evans Starzinger. It may be of interest to some others, so here is the link: http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/rightlinejob.pdf

You have convinced me that using this arborist rope for my main/jib halyards would not be a good idea. However, I will still buy a couple hundred feet for other purposes:

One is for a spi halyard. As Beth and Evans point out, some stretch on that is even advantageous, to deal with shock loads. The same applies to the mainsheet and the traveller lines (although I obviously won't need 100' for this purpose).

Another application I have is for a spare halyard. Last time I had the stick down I installed a block at the mast top as a spare, just in case. I have never used it and I may never need it, but boy would I be glad to have it if I did. In such a case, I doubt that I would worry about a couple inches of stretch in the line.

What I don't know is whether this line will prematurely degrade with exposure to salt (not so much an issue here on the upper Chessie) and UV. This is a risk I will take.

So, that's my plan. I will scratch the idea of using it for jib sheets or main/jib halyards but there seem to be viable applications. And I will save a sizable fraction of a boot buck doing so.

Again, thanks for the informative discussion!
 
#37 ·
OP,

I did not read article. BUT, some places it is good to have stretch, others not. Halyards and sheets "GENERALLY" speaking, do not want stretch. As this will bag out a sail, cause it to not be the shape you want, which leads to more heeling, slowing down etc. Less stretch keeps the sail in shape, which in turn with gusts causes LESS heeling and speed loss. A stretch line for a Main boom lift/holder is not a big deal. I would not want a stretchy line as I pointed out a few posts back, for any kind of running rigging. Anchors, dock lines, mountain climbing etc.....no big. I use my older climbing line to go up the mast. But would not use it for running rigging etc. UNLESS, offshore, only way back a day or three or more later, then use what you have!


marty
 
#38 · (Edited)
i rigged my halyards with samson xls extra T and they were worth the cost for my cruising boat. But I put an extra halyard in using New England ropes Sta-set and had it rigged with my jib the other day. There was no question the extra T had less stretch. To keep my jib flat in blustery conditions it was necessary to load up the halyard quite a bit more than when using the extra T. Im sure if I had any warpspeed on the boat Id notice that improvement in similar conditions. But Ive sailed plenty on boats rigged with dacron three strand and it used to get us where we needed to go....But you bet the new lines are better. I still prefer nylon strand or braid for docklines and springs (eases shock on the cleats etc) and like dyneema for my outhall and a few other spots where minimal stretch and slender strength is helpful.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk
 
#39 ·
The only place where I think stretch is a good thing would be dock/anchor lines. It has no place in halyards or sheets at all.

Nothing worse then a gust hitting the sails and the extra load stretched the lines, causing the boat to now be overpowered from the deeper draft sails that you have been trying to trim out.


Sure stretchy line will work, but as a severe compromise.
 
#41 ·
The only place where I think stretch is a good thing would be dock/anchor lines. It has no place in halyards or sheets at all.

Nothing worse then a gust hitting the sails and the extra load stretched the lines, causing the boat to now be overpowered from the deeper draft sails that you have been trying to trim out.

Sure stretchy line will work, but as a severe compromise.
Actually, nylon is good for travelers. Soft jibes.
 
#40 ·
Truly, it does not matter whether you are a racer or not. Use the right stretch and strength for the right purpose. That arborist line looks too stretchy.

If, rather, _when_ you get caught in a blow and have to de-power your sail, a stretchy halyard will ruin your day. The sail (main or jib) will power up in a puff and you can get knocked down.

On the other hand, if your mast bend does not automatically depower your main, you may want a little stretch in the boom vang (kicker) to allow twist in a puff.

Also, 1/2 inch is a bit on the large side, your blocks and clutches may not accept that and will cause you trouble.

As a point of reference, West marine has 3/8" Sta-set line with a 5100 pound breaking strength, and 10100 pound at 1/2". That line is listed with an average stretch of 1 to 2%. This means that at full hoist, the halyard might stretch 6 to 12 inches. If reefed, it will stretch further (you have more halyard running up & then back down the mast) You should think about a more high-performance ultra-low stretch line for the halyard even for inshore sailing. I've been caught in a weather change too many times.
 
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